Engine oil thread

KTMphil

Senior member
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Location
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Bikes
2007 KTM 990 Adventure Suzuki DRZ 400
Havn't spotted an engine oil thread yet, so I thought I'd open that can of worms

Quality engine oil (& especially manufacturers recommended engine oils!) is tough to find in Asia & especially hard to find in poorer areas.

I know of plenty of experienced motorbike mechanics and riders, in the western world that choose to run their adventure and sport bikes on cheap, good quality Shell Rotella oil.
t1_575x128_banner.jpg


The frequency of changing it seems to be what makes it work, most change it every 2,000 miles. I also know people that use Shell Rimula diesel truck oil in their bikes, they say that the gear changing feels much better with this engine oil. There is a lot of discussion that the additives in diesel truck engine oil harm motorbike engines, doesn't seem to be a lot of proof generally.

It's a good thing to remember when you're coming through Asia and can't find the specific oil you're looking for.

Rumor has it that the KTM race development team use Shell synthetic Rimula in their bikes and change it every 1,000km, even though they have a financial partnership with motorex oils
rimula_ultra_150.jpg


I've been using Mobil 1 5W 50 in my KTM 990 adventure for 50,000km with no problems. There is some debate that the multi blend viscosity is all marketing (by people in the oil industry) to the point that most multi blend oils whether they're 5W 50 or 15W 50 are basically the same oil.
M1_15w50_top.gif


I've seen that Shell in Chiang Mai, Thailand, sells a semi synthetic motorcycle oil that i'm trying in my Suzuki DRZ400 which feels good in the gear changes.
http://www.shell.co.th/home/content/tha-en/products_services/on_the_road/oils_lubricants/advance/

advance_vsx_4t.jpg
 
When i ride or own Harleys here in Thailand I use Pennzoil Gold for Diesel pickups instead of inferior and expensive HD oil it works perfectly for HDs except the Vrod which requires a full synthetic oil
The diesel type oil works to 240c unlike regular oils which breack down at 200c so in a big aircooled HD they are excellent .HDactually recommend such oils for use in counties where HD oil is not available.


In my Ducati Monster S4 which requires a full synthetic oil as its water cooled I use Motul 15-50w motorcycle grade . I have used motul 10-40w full synthetic as wellbut the bike runs quieter on the 15-50 so it seems better.
If Motul is not available I use Mobil 1 15-50wwhich is also excellent

In UK I use Putoline 20-50w semi synthetic Vtwin oil in my air cooled Ducatinmonster 750 and 750ss they suffer little wear when examined.

I always change my oil between 3500 and 4500 km use with a fresh filter or at least once a year is lightly used.
 
The Harley oil I use for my 2010 Harley 48 (1200cc) is 60W here, as far as i can remember it's the only 60W engine oil I have seen here.
 
A couple of articles on synthetic v's non-synthetic oils

From Car Craft magazine:


Over the years, Car Craft has tested many different types of engine components. A common theme underlying many of these tests is that bigger is not necessarily better, especially on the street. But just as many continue to believe in rad cams and giant carbs, traditional, thick, single-viscosity oils still have a strong following among car-crafting traditionalists.

Of course, high-viscosity oils don't flow well at low temperatures. In the old days, guys living in cold climates put in a thinner oil for the winter with a "W" or cold temperature-viscosity rating. Although they poured better at low temperatures, straight-viscosity "W" oils, in turn, didn't do a good job of protecting high-performance engines once they reached normal operating temperatures, so they weren't recommended for sustained high-speed driving. The oil industry developed "all-season" multiviscosity oils to solve the problem, but some of the early products didn't hold up under heavy-duty operating conditions, tainting the reputation of multiviscosity lubricants among many Car Crafters to this day.

Yet today's modern oils are vastly improved over those of 20 years ago. For oils that meet the current "SJ" service designation, viscosity breakdown is no longer a significant problem, thanks to modern formulation technologies and viscosity enhancers. Auto manufacturers have also redesigned their engines for tighter clearances and instituted precision machining techniques that take advantage of thinner oil to deliver improved fuel economy through reduced friction.

Like the OEMs, racers have discovered that friction reductions plus precision tight clearances yield greater efficiency and more power. Racers also know that most engine wear occurs at start-up, so it's critical that engine parts receive proper lubrication as soon as possible--hence the need for an initially thinner, so-called "winter" viscosity. Today, few racers run a single-viscosity motor oil except nitro-burners. According to 76 Lubricants, most NASCAR teams use the really thin stuff during qualifying, moving up to 20W-50 during the long race (although it's rumored some teams may use the extreme cold-weather thin oils all the time, but don't want to admit to their latest performance "trick").



Synthetic oils, pioneered in the '70s by Mobil and now available from most major oil companies, take the all-season, multiviscosity approach to the outer limits. Unlike traditional mineral oils that are produced by distillation and further refining of existing crude oil stock, synthetic lubricants are made through chemical reactions. These new oils aren't synthetic or artificial in the sense that they're manufactured out of whole cloth--they still have the same natural ingredients found in "real" oil. But in a synthetic lubricant, these ingredients are recombined like a Lego set to yield synthesized-hydrocarbon molecular chains with desirable characteristics and uniformity not found in even the highest-quality traditional motor oils. Typically, the best synthetic oils use a combination of up to three different synthetic base fluids--polyalphaolefin (PAO), synthetic esters, and alkylated aromatics.

Because a synthetic oil's molecules are much more consistent in size and shape, they are better able to withstand extreme engine temperatures. By contrast, the unstable molecules in conventional oil can easily vaporize or oxidize in extreme heat. Mobil 1 synthetic is said to be capable of protecting engines "at well over 400 degrees F"; in the real world, most racers have no problem running synthetics up to 290 degrees F under prolonged use, but they get really jumpy when a conventional exceeds 270 degrees F.

Because a synthetic oil is chemically produced, there are no contaminants in the oil. By contrast, conventional oils contain small amounts of sulfur, wax, and asphaltic material that can promote detonation as well as varnish and sludge buildup. With no wax, synthetics will flow at much lower temperatures than conventional oils. In fact, synthetic oils are now available with viscosity ratings as low as 0W-30, as in Mobil 1's new Tri-Synthetic blend or Castrol Formula SLX. These oils flow more than seven times faster than a conventional 5W-30 motor oil during initial start-up, yet at normal operating temperatures act like a regular Grade 30 oil.

An 0W-30 synthetic oil is capable of pumping easily at -62 degrees F and flowing at even lower temperatures. Conventional oils are essentially frozen solid at that temperature, so there's simply no conventional equivalent to this new grade. There are 5W-30 conventional and synthetic oils, but even here, the synthetic has a real-world advantage: Mobil 1's 5W-30 will pump at -58-degrees F, compared to about -35-degrees F for a conventional oil.



But claims and talk are cheap, so Car Craft had Westech Performance run some of the new Mobil 1 0W-30 in Ford's prototype 392 small-block stroker crate engine. The Mobil 1 was compared to the generic (and recommended for this engine) 20W-50 factory-fill conventional oil, as well as 10W-30 conventional oil. All tests began with the oil temperature stabilized at 210 degrees F. The engine ran from 3,300-6,200 rpm, and several runs were made for each oil to ensure repeatability.

In terms of peak numbers, we found that the engine gained nearly 7 hp with the thinner conventional oil, and was up nearly 10 hp with the synthetic. No peak torque gains were observed by changing from 20W-50 to 10W-30 conventional; however, the synthetic was up 15 lb-ft of torque at the peak. Looking at average numbers helps explain where the gains occurred--both the thinner conventional and synthetic oils broadened the torque and power bands overall, but the thin Mobil 1 showed the greatest improvement under 4,700 rpm, indicating that the thinner oil provides less initial drag for the engine to overcome.

However, thinner oil also translates to lower oil pressure: The 0W-30 oil developed 10 psi less than the baseline 20W-50. Only 46 psi was on tap at 6,200 rpm--kind of shaky as most gearheads like to see at least 10 psi per 1,000 rpm. Still, the engine ran OK, and the bearings looked fine on teardown, seemingly verifying synthetic manufacturers' claims that their products' greater shear strength more than makes up for lower viscosity. Is 10 hp and 15 lb-ft worth paying two to four times more for a quart of oil? Or the potential for extended engine life? You be the judge.


From Popular Mechanics magazine:

Q: After a recent trip to two major auto parts dealers for oil (5W 30), I realized synthetic oil is slowly replacing nonsynthetic on the display shelves. The problem is, I'm getting conflicting information about synthetic oil. One store attendant told me I shouldn't go back to regular oil after changing to synthetic. Then he said it would be okay to add a quart of regular oil to synthetic, if I needed to top up. Another clerk said I should never mix the two. At a different store, the employee said it didn't matter if I used synthetic and then later replaced it with regular oil.

A: Early synthetics got a bad reputation for leaking. This was because, despite the claims of the oil manufacturers, the seal-swell characteristics of the new synthetics were different from those of the mineral oils they replaced. If the seal-swell rate was lower, the seals shrank and oil leaked from crankshaft seals and rocker cover seals. If the rate was higher, the seals swelled a little extra and the engine was tight. Then if the owner changed back to mineral oil, or added a quart when no synthetic was to be had, things got really bad. The crank seals had become worn, in their turgid state, and then relaxed. The valve cover seals were compressed when swelled, and when the different oil was added, everything leaked like, well, an old English sports car.

Fortunately, the situation has improved; you should have no problem switching back and forth. Adding a quart of mineral oil to a crankcase full of synthetic will be fine. Read the fine print -- a lot of the "synthetics" on the market are blends containing a substantial proportion of mineral oil.

 
I use a pretty much any decent quality car oil, not too fussed what brand and what type (synthetic or mineral) as long as it does not have too much "slip additives" as it may make the clutch slip.
As cars uses a dry clutch you can never have too much slip in a car oil but on motorbikes with both a wet type clutch and a sprag clutch for the starter motor it can be a right disaster with too slippy oil -try a very slippy car oil in a Yamaha V-Max and you will know what I mean..... :( cost me a new clutch that did!

Eric
 
Think I will use the Mobil 1 now....more power!!!

Interesting................ oil has come a long way

Still as massive environmental problem, all the waste oil produced from oil changes does't always find it's way to recycling centres...

It's still being dumped down the drains...

2 strokes would help solve that problem, with there total loss lubrication system there is none left to get rid off.....the new 2 stroke engines being developed are more efficient than today 4's...

Bring back Castrol R
 
In my racing bike I use pure Synthetic 15W 50 oil. I use the bike on the track every week end and do about 300 kilometers of hard riding each weekend.
I change my oil at least once per month, but more like every two weeks for this bike.
I know this is extreme and costly but this is my choice.
I have never suffered a blown motor since the early eighties using this routine.
For my road bikes which do very little kilometers and are used in hot temperature locations I use any name brand oil and never less than 15W 40 oil and even higher viscosity in the hottest parts of the year. I still change these oils at least once every two months even if the bike is never used in that period
Oils are very complex and one needs to study in detail the refining processes and molecules that make up oil to understand it.
Therefore I will explain in lay man’s language.
Most people think the W associated with the packaging of oil is its “weight” or they call it a multi grade.
Neither is true. The W stands for “winter” and the number are related to the viscosity tested at a temperature 100C in the lab
The critical component of oil is the viscosity which is the thickness of the oil.
Viscosity controls its ability to flow when cold and to maintain high enough viscosity or thickness to coat a film of oil between moving parts and lubricate when hot.
There are other requirements such as the volume flow rate and pump pressure to consider but that needs another page of explanation.
Oil changes viscosity with temperature. Very cold and it can becomes so thick it will not even flow.
Very hot and it can become so thin is not enough oil will adhere to a bearing surface and will not lubricate.
Oils which most people call multi grades have Viscosity modifiers which is a Polymer added to the oil which assist in keeping the oils viscosity at levels that allow the oil to be pumped and lubricate when cold and prevent the oil becoming too thin when hot. The disadvantage of the Viscosity modifiers is that they are broken down by the mechanical shearing forces inside high performance engines.
This can cause premature wear and engine failures. Shearing is another science that needs a separate explaination.
These so called Multi grade oils are designed for many temperature regions. Such as the below freezing locations in the winter of northern Russia, Canada etc. to the temperate locations such as Spain, Italy Australia etc.
Around the equator the temperature remain fairly constant and relatively hot.
Therefore higher viscosity oils are required in these locations.
Synthetic oils do not need viscosity modifiers added as the molecular structure of the oil maintain a more constant viscosity. (Synthetic needs another separate explanation)
Blended Synthetics are a complete waste of money. The normal oil will do the same lubricating job as blended oil. You are paying extra money for no benefit at all.

Any oil will deteriorate if it is not changed often. So using the correct viscosity for your locations temperature will maintain good lubrication and changing the oil and filter more often than any manufacturers recommended period is cheap insurance to keep a motor in pristine condition for many kilometers.
 
Thanks Brian,

That is the 1st time Ive heard that the "W" relates to winter not weight, good to have someone from the oil industry correct miss-understandings.
 
Brian - Fantastic post thanks. Normally I avoid oil threads as they simply turn into someone stating their practices, without any tech info to validate that methodology. Brian your post is a refreshing change. Thank you for the information.

Now in our primarily hot environment in Southeast Asia is a multi-weight considered the most effective or does a single weight hold up better in the high temps for longer?? I'm curious.

Not sure its backed by scientific data but years ago when I used to race cars my dry sump oil tank was almost 30 degrees F cooler with synthetic over the dino oil. I'm guessing due to a reduction of friction within the engine.
 
Here in Thailand the best bang for the baht is the PTT 20-50 premium grade gasoline engine oil.
At around 450 baht for 5 liters it's the best deal available.(that's about as technical as you need to get really) :lol:
Change it every 4000kms, premium engine oil begins to sublimate after 4000 kms. So that's a good time to change it.

Fancy synthetics are fine for modern cars but the bikes seem to prefer the regular premium oil and having it changed regularly.
With these ethanol based fuels we're stuck with it just seems much wiser to change the oil frequently rather than go on extended drain interval adventures that a synthetic engine oil will want you to do because of the additional cost.
That's my 2 cents based on 35 years experience in various aspects of the motor vehicle world.
I still use a very fancy synthetic extreme gear lube in the final drive and transmission of my R1100GS just because of the know issues with that model.
 
Thanks for your kind comments.
I have been to Sepang circuit since Friday morning and returned late last night. (A great 2 days of track time) so didn’t check the site until today.

Dont even consider single grade oils. they will be obsolete in the near future.

15W-40 or 15W-50 Multi grade oil does a lot of things better than a single grade.

It has better antirust protection, reduces oil consumption past the oil rings and increases oil flow to most parts of the engine. It reduces fuel consumption.
Cold weather starting is improved due to the flow characteristics which improve stater motor cranking
Single grade oils are fine if used in Machinery such as lawn mowers or chain saws etc. They would be fine for any vehicle engine also if we could knew the air temperature would remain constant.
Therefore there is no common sense to even consider single grade oil for your bike as you will use it in a variety of temperatures.
The only thing missing from the single grade oils is the viscosity modifier (Polymers) therefore the multi grade oils are the best choice. It is just a matter of matching the correct grade to the location you use the engine.
In a city like Bangkok I would always use 15W – 40 or even 15W 50 in a street bike as the place is usually over 33 degrees every day and you spend a lot of time standing so the temperature can go very high.
I use Synthetics because of the superior lubrication it provides at high temperatures and high RPM loads. This type of bike use is not typical.
Most people go for ride and their speeds are varied and relatively moderate therefore using any name brand mineral oil at the right grade for your locations temperate will do the job for many years.
My single most important advice it to chance it regularly.
 
This is what ive been using in the Suzuki DRZ 400.

I think this is what Mark has been using in the tour bikes for a few years.

Shell Advance AX7 4T 10w 40
shell oil.jpg


It's a semi synthetic engine oil, cost is about 140 bht a liter.


They sell a fully synthetic version for 360 bht a liter.

Im told the Thai word for synthetic (as in oil) is "sakor".
 
Thanks for the thread - very good for new or almost new riders like me :)
I currently use Mobil1 Fully Synthetic oil, 10W40.

5795856170_3335278935_z.jpg


Any chance I can find it in Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam ?
If I don't, what's the next best thing ?

If you were to ride around S.E.A where would you get your oil from ? Would you pack some with you or would you just stop at bike shops on the way and ask for it ?

How much does 1L of EO cost, the type and grade I mentioned above?
In Singapore for example, a bottle of that costs S$18 (US $14).
Edit: the above answers it for Thailand, thanks Phil!
How is it in other countries ?
Is there any fake EO, or need-to-stay-away-from EO that a clueless rider should be aware of when riding in the region? I'm not worried about Malaysia as I'll be riding with someone who speaks malay and I am a tiny bit used to bike shops there, but beyond that and up north, I have no clue what to expect/look for..

Can we have a thread about petrol as well please? :D
 
Most cities in Thailand carry Mobil 1 5w 50 (obviously fully synthetic).

I've found for 4 liters, the price to vary from 1,600 bht at an oil vendor to 2,350 bht at a at a Mobil filling station.
 
I asked my students the other day what SAE stands for on oil bottles...

After a long pause......

Somebody said......stamped addressed envelope....

Off course that was incorrect...

Society of automotive engineers ......is the correct answer...

API can also be found ........ American petroleum institute...

How many miles do you think you will do Oren???...perhaps take a litre with you?
 
I asked my students the other day what SAE stands for on oil bottles...

After a long pause......

Somebody said......stamped addressed envelope....

Off course that was incorrect...

Society of automotive engineers ......is the correct answer...

API can also be found ........ American petroleum institute...

How many miles do you think you will do Oren???...perhaps take a litre with you?
 
O'Ren said:
Planning on doing 10 000 km :D
you can find Mobil1everywhere in Thailand.
You might just bring an oil filter so you can do an oil change anywhere easily.

Fuel has gotten much easier to follow with 2 grades of 10% gasohol 91 & 95 Ron. And one grade of pure benzine or petrol 91 Ron. Benzine 95 is currently almost impossible to find and when you find very expensive.
The Shell 95 vpower is my preffered for the r1100gs. After that all the brands here are good. In more remote areas they have fuel out of barrels, but I've never heard of anyone having problems.
 
Bp's right, you may as well bring what you need and change the oil and filter on route when required..

:idea:

I'm sure some Thai mechanic will be glad of the work and will cost you very little...
 
So, what is the best value high temp' fully synthetic bike engine oil available locally? (Supplier details in CM or CR would be good.)

Just read a thread here on using diesel pickup/lorry syn' oils in dirt bikes - is that what many are doing as a cheap option???

Or, there's the Royal Purple (Max Cycle) dealer who you could order from... Anyone know how that prices up?

Cheers.
 
How much per liter do the Thailand KTM dealers charge for Motorex Synthetic ?

Its $36/liter in Cambodia.
 
Motorex Cross Power 4T synthetic is 1,300 baht in Chiang Mai KTM c. $42usd. You can get it for $22usd in the UK...
 
^ Ouch! 700b a litre. Mobil1 is about same and this is better spec though. Kawasaki had Motul 10w/40 syn' for 380b a litre.
 
Got Shell Advance Ultra for 250b (x10) a litre at my local garage... Spec is OK - apart from top viscosity - but don't think you can get the 15w/50 version in Thailand. A local bike shop has performance 10w/60 also (forget the name) but at 720b... For the price difference, reckon I'll try with this. (KTM 250 spec says should use 10w/50 or 10w/60.) Will see if I can tell the difference compared to the Putoline 10w/60 I bought yesterday (doubt it!), or I might just add 200ml of the Putoline to finish the oil change (capacity=1.2L).

Shell Advance Ultra - Shell Global
shell_advance_ultra_4t_10w40.png

I like this as a good visual aid to show the difference viscosity makes:

viscosity-2.gif
 
Just one thing...i think its better to run the thickest recommended oil here in the hot climate,although im not an expert.

But surely engines must run hotter and oil thinner?
 
Just one thing...i think its better to run the thickest recommended oil here in the hot climate,although im not an expert.

But surely engines must run hotter and oil thinner?

That's what I'd think - but 250b or 700b :hmm.

You'll know more about performance of oils then me, but yep, higher viscosity oils thin less at high temperatures. (Age/wear of oil lowers viscosity too.)

10w/60 being 70% thicker than 10w/40, I'll go with 1L of the cheaper 10w/40 and 200ml of the expensive 10w/60 with plenty of oil changes and see how that goes... (I'd guess there's a few others running 10w/40 in excf's. Darren - if you read this - what you use? eTicket uses Mobil1 10w/40 in his 350.)

Obviously, the cooling system is going to make a difference. Have a KTM rad fan ready to fit to mine.
 
Got Shell Advance Ultra for 250b (x10) a litre at my local garage... Spec is OK - apart from top viscosity - but don't think you can get the 15w/50 version in Thailand. A local bike shop has performance 10w/60 also (forget the name) but at 720b... For the price difference, reckon I'll try with this. (KTM 250 spec says should use 10w/50 or 10w/60.) Will see if I can tell the difference compared to the Putoline 10w/60 I bought yesterday (doubt it!), or I might just add 200ml of the Putoline to finish the oil change (capacity=1.2L).

Shell Advance Ultra - Shell Global
View attachment 18816

I like this as a good visual aid to show the difference viscosity makes:

viscosity-2.gif

Seems to contain, at least in part, highly refined mineral oil

http://www.oilsandstuff.com/sites/default/files/Advance 4T Ultra 10w-40.pdf

refer pg 1, note 3.
Preparation Description
: Synthetic base oil and additives. Highly refined mineral oil.

I reckon the quality would be ok, but 15W50 would be better for our climate.

I'm using a similar spec oil available in Cambo

Total 4T 10w50 Fully Synthetic $6/liter, but its really highly refined mineral oil

Hi-Perf 4T Racing SL 10W50
 
I think I've seen Total garages in Thailand - but can't remember where.
 
I personally would not bother with expensive fully synth motor oil in an offroad bike.

In modern hi-comp dirt bike engines oil contamination from fuel is the main reason oil loses its lubricating qualities.

Yes a fully synt oil will resist that contamination more than a cheaper oil, but it wont resist it as well as changing the cheaper oil regularly.

Most users of expensive fully synth oil naturally feel different, but of course, they are wrong!

I use PTT Challenger semi-synt at 135 baht per liter and have never had any drama in either my CRF or KTM.

I change the oil in CRF at 3-5 hours (it's an MX bike!) and the KTM at 7-10 hours, KTM recommend 15, but wtf would they know.
 
best local oil generally available is Motul technosynthesise 300v a 15-50w fully synthetic class 5 oil , very good shear ,,,, I use it now in my Ducati exlusively for last 5 years ,,, best thing about this oil is that it stays on the surface of the valve gear for months even when bike not used for 5 months the top of the engine has a thick sheen of oil on the surface of the cams ,,, this oil is very well thought of in racing circles too. i use other oils in UK but The Motul is best available here . can be had in 10-40w too but I prefer the 15-50w as the temps here are always above 25c ...no cold weather starting ...
 
Shell Advance ultra is not a class 5 fully synthetic ,,,its actually , only a class 4 synthetic which is a hybrid oil synthesised from base crude oil not synthetics ,,,,it is a good oil but not the best ,,, Mobil one is a class 5 but the motorcycle variaat is not widely available in thailand and car version may affect wet clutches making them slip,, Motul Technosynthesise300v is made for bikes ....

main things is that whatever oil you use change it every 4-5000km ,, thats actually more important than the brand or ratings,
 
Had a check for the Motul 300v but only price I found was 1100b a litre and have only seen Motul Htech 100 syn sold local (380b at CM Kaw'). Might call them to check when my (10 changes) stock runs out but will stick with the Shell and PTT (PTT syn is 250b) options unless it's cheapish. I'll just go with cheaper syn or semi oils and changes every 10 hours. Don't know why they don't sell the 15w50 Shell Ultra here...


Motul prices: http://www.tigermotor.co.th/ProductAll/motul2011.files/Motul Price List 2011.pdf
Motul Thailand: http://www.facebook.com/MotulThailandMotorcycles

PTT LUBRICANTS : Lubricants for Vehicle (looks like they've got bottle pics 2&3 wrong way round. Jaso MB is for auto clutches.)
 
Esso gas stations here carry Mobil products,might be worth checking out too.
 
^ Did. Only had a quick look and not sure if there was actually Mobil1 for bikes there - but all synth was 700b+, I think.
 
In pattaya i can buy Motul Technosynthesise 300v for 380bt a litre ,,,, 1100bt LITRE IS A RIP OFF PRICE
 
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