DRZ Brain trust

[screamingeagle]

I call it a brain trust as some of the comments made me think they had their brains entrusted for safe keeping. I could have called it Peanut Brains Inc. Usually when I encounter negative people and internet know it alls I just trust that like a really bad fart their comments dissipate before people read them. Not in this case.
We had 4 persons withdraw from interest in the DRZ due to comments placed by the aforementioned. That they withdrew says something about them as well. They believed some of the tripe.

On a very positive note Ally, Bob and Phil you should be happy to note that RideAsia had a 600% better response to the ad than other forums. Just a shame about the corresponding number of adverse and incorrect assumptions. Something I have previously expected from the other forums. But it did make me smile.
Some of buyers adverse comments: After market wheels are no good; 21" front wheel upsets the bike geometry; after market exhausts are banned in Chiang Mai; IRC universal tyres are no good; after market exhaust might annoy my neighbours; reupholstered seat might be hiding something; removable sheep skin cover might be hiding something; and a few more proving people are funny!

Just for my own personal interest I did some research. As can be seen the commenter's did not. I was even accused of fabrication which if the moron making the comment had researched via the internet (s)he might have engaged his/her brain before putting his/her fingers on the keyboard.

I took the bike over and had the full wet weight verified after using a known weight to ensure the accuracy of the reading. The DRZ dry weight is estimated after using known liquid weights and quantities plus digital kitchen scales. If I use the Kawaski factory formula the DRZ's dry weight would be even lower. But I ain't that cheap.
The dyno readings can be verified on the web. I researched the other bikes as a matter of course after a number of callers identified a desire to "trade up". Also using reverse engineering maths the crank HP can be calculated. Anyone who has spent any time around motor vehicles knows the incorrect figures put out by factories and reviewers. But to believe it is another matter.

The only comment I would make at this stage is if someone disagrees with something posted. Verify your information before publishing. BTW Honds CRF 450 - calculate the wet weight after "road legal" extras are installed.

BIKE	FACTORY HP	DYNO HP	FACTORY WEIGHT	TRUE WEIGHT	DRY WEIGHT
SUZUKI DRZ 400	40	35 + up	134 dry	140 (wet)	126.5
SUZUKI DRZ 440+	50	45 & up	Should be similar	Should be similar	Same?
KAWASAKI D 250	30	18	139(wet)	Don’t know don’t care	Listed as 119 But unverified
HONDA CRF 250L	23	17.95	144(wet)	Don’t know don’t care	124 (est)
HONDA CRF 450	55	42 -50(big difference)	99 (dry) 110 )wet)	Don’t know don’t care	Fact list 99 unverified

 

[LivinLOS]

So what your saying with those figures is we were right.. A stock 400 is in the 3x HP range and 140 plus kgs ??

Thanks for confirming it.

O still say those 440 figures are ambitious, but a lot closer this time round.

I was talking with a lad who wants a better supermoto than a d-tracker or CRF250L and trying to push him to DRZ, hes a bit new to Thailand and doesnt know the issues with registrations and books, was talking of wanting to 'register' a motorcrosser. If he listens to my advice I will forward your advert over. I am assuming your green book is a full legal legit green book not a grey book (eg you have checked the vin number is a DRZ vin number ?) and its able to move province ??

 

[Ally]

Thanks for the feedback

Glad to hear you had a smile, lets hope the bike will sell soon.

Ally

 

[screamingeagle]

Thx Ally.

Not expecting a sale now it is past the initial phase.

have a good one

 

[screamingeagle]

So what your saying with those figures is we were right.. A stock 400 is in the 3x HP range and 140 plus kgs ??

Thanks for confirming it.

O still say those 440 figures are ambitious, but a lot closer this time round.



I was talking with a lad who wants a better supermoto than a d-tracker or CRF250L and trying to push him to DRZ, hes a bit new to Thailand and doesnt know the issues with registrations and books, was talking of wanting to 'register' a motorcrosser. If he listens to my advice I will forward your advert over. I am assuming your green book is a full legal legit green book not a grey book (eg you have checked the vin number is a DRZ vin number ?) and its able to move province ??

- No LOS you quoted 145 wet and 135 dry. Wet with extras (means it weighs more) this one came in at 140 even. If you apply the Kwaka formula its closer to 120 dry rather than my estimate based on fuel/oil water weight etc and ad hoc kitchen scale weighing to get the 126.5. Doing the maths on that and the HP brings it closer to what that site quoted that you called a "fabrication" (my word)

All the figures can be checked including the 440 ones. Do it rather than guessing and causing confusion.

In all honesty if you are talking to this "lad" I would rather not be. Too much hastle. I will give it a miss.

I really enjoy the DRZ but had other plans that were derailed. Thx LOS. I don't want to compete
with Phil in the number of bikes owned and have yet another bike in the garage. I am already considering building a bigger garage
as it is for the ones I have.

Happy Trails

 

[KTMphil]

It came in lighter because of the aftermarket exhaust.

 

[brake034]

Here is the thing, OP posted a great bike with all legal papers at a solid price.
If I was in the market of such a bike I would be all over it, I think it is solid and needs a new loving owner so OP can move on to his new project.

OP in my opinion got railroaded on a remark on HP's, something hardly an issue when comparing to the commonly available CRF's or KLX's right??
If the bike was on invoice (or other crap paperwork) only I would certainly take a different position!! :bash

 

[LivinLOS]

I also think its a solid bike at an ok price.. Especially if hes going to deal little.

OP in my opinion got railroaded on a remark on HP's

Well yeah.. If you make a claim like that in the actual thread title, you would assume it was the primary sales point he was making, not a guess. And even a stroker hit big bore running almost 480cc, 41mm carb, hot cams, full pipe, and all the mods is going to struggle to be up there at 48 bhp.. Only the hottest and costliest of the DRZ mods get up around 50hp and by then you might also need to start worrying about reliability (why I didnt go with a stroker crank).

I think DRZs are great solid bikes.. Been really enjoying mine, highly recommended at the price. Not much else to go other than a WR450 or husky 450 510 if you want a road usable one.

 

[Loop]

Here's one at close to 60hp that's been on a dyno,so verified that that bike has recorded that number on a dyno.


the tale of a 57hp 05 drz sm.NOW 60 HP 10/31/08 - DR-Z 400 - ThumperTalk

 

[LivinLOS]

Eddie is pretty much the most famous DRZ engine tuner out there (I just bought some bits off him last week still waiting to clear customs) for race engines and thats his most aggressive build IIRC. Big bore, stroker, hot cams, custom porting, full pipe, the works.. If you see the 2nd before last curve, pre the custom inlet port expansions its still sub 50..

Thats pretty much the pinnacle of normally aspirated DRZ engine builds done by the best DRZ guy in the world out there. Another guy managed to strap a turbo onto one and make it work, that was ballpark 70hp but was being torn down and rebuilt on a monthly basis.

Handily it also has the stock engine file shown putting out 35 on his chats, which is the measured stock bike.

My DRZ would be on par with his run 76, clocking in at low 40hp and about what I was guessing.. I am surprised to see how the addition of hot cams, a 41 over my 39mm FCR, and a pipe were good to bring that up more than 10% to almost the 50. Makes me think about the cams I havent yet done now Tho really I should just put the money into a real track toy and enjoy the dizzy for what it is without screwing its reliability up, its not like I have a mechanic like Eddie on hand to work magic on it.

 

[Loop]

Bigger valves,porting and reshaped combustion chamber with cams is really where you start to get into loss of down low response.

My old Ducati with mods like that wouldn't run under 4k rpm but loved full throttle between 6-11k rpm.

Not an ideal set up for puttering around on slow dirt roads. Great if you want to drag your mates off at the lights and hard road riding.

 

[LivinLOS]

Bigger valves,porting and reshaped combustion chamber with cams is really where you start to get into loss of down low response.

My old Ducati with mods like that wouldn't run under 4k rpm but loved full throttle between 6-11k rpm.

Not an ideal set up for puttering around on slow dirt roads. Great if you want to drag your mates off at the lights and hard road riding.

Yeah the stroker kits tend to have that issue.. Tho all reports are Eddies engine work is top level and he hints at specific springs and mods to alleviate some of that low RPM loss.

When I was having issues with getting my engine rebuilt I even considered shipping mine over to Sosneros Speed Works for his attention.

 

[screamingeagle]

Very true Phil but depending whether we talk wet or dry as the weights are still lower than was put in the forum and that was one of the issues a poster complained about. With weight calculations you have to consider a 9A batter and case, 21" wheel in lieu 17" as standard on a SM and afew more. To be honest i could not give a rats about any of it till there were a few negative comments about weight and horse power where one of the posters got his knickers in a knot trying to understand crank HP vs rear wheel.

The comment by Brake034 hits the nail on the head once again. Thanks B.

And finally LoS decided to make a VIN comment so I will ask 4 questions from hopefully someone who does not speculate:
1/ When you get the mandatory check up before paying the DoT fees the first thing they always do is copy the VIN number. So unless we are going conspiracy theory or BS like welded over / ground / restamped then the numbers have to match bike to book.
2/ According to what I have read some bikes have a vin plate and others just use the steering head stamp.
3/ Chiang Mai DoT have a set in concrete policy re: registration of certain bikes.
4/ Bikes cannot always been transferred from certain provinces dating back to years ago when provinces and their DoTwere individual entities. Any comments from anyone knowing the facts.

Finally I am posting a very interesting (to me anyway) article about some of the subjects under discussion.
LoS if you want to gamble: We have family in senior management at Chiang Mai DoT. No funny business so do not ask. Send me your details and I will get your bike checked out but if there was any irregularities in your bike
registration it will be found out but then your registration will be cancelled. Sorry.

 

[screamingeagle]

[h=2]Engine power and torque[/h]With power typically being the product of force and speed, a motorcycle's power and torque ratings will be highly indicative of its performance. Reported numbers for power and torque may however vary from one source to another due to inconsistencies in how testing equipment is calibrated, the method of using that equipment, the conditions during the test, and particularly the location that force and speed are being measured at.[SUP][2][/SUP] The power of the engine alone, often called crankshaft power, or power at the crankshaft, will be significantly greater than the power measured at the rear wheel. The amount of power lost due to friction in the transmission (primary drive, gearbox and final drive) depends on the details of the design and construction. Generalizing, a chain drive motorcycle may have some 5-20% less power at the rear wheel than at the crankshaft, while a shaft drive model may lose a little more than that due to greater friction.

• While the crankshaft power excludes these transmission losses, still the measurement is often made elsewhere in the drive-train, often at the rear wheel. A correction for the transmission losses is then applied to the measured values to obtain the crankshaft values. For motorcycles, the reported power and torque numbers normally pertain to the crankshaft. In directive 92/61/EEC of 30 June 1992 relating to the type-approval of two or three-wheel motor vehicles,[SUP][3][/SUP] it is referred to as "maximum engine power", and manufacturers use similar terms. Historically, this convention may have come from the pre-unit construction, wherein the crankshaft was directly accessible for measurements, and the gearbox might have come from a different manufacturer. However, when the engineering details of the transmission are known, the losses therein can be accurately quantified & corrected for. Explicit guidance on the homologation measurements and transmission corrections is given in directive 95/1/EC.[SUP][4][/SUP]​

A main source of ambiguity and differences comes from the conditions the test was done at. These conditions include details like atmospheric conditions (temperature, pressure, humidity), tire pressure, but most importantly: the conditions of the motorcycle itself. Examples thereof are: was the alternator fitted?; was the air filter fitted?; what exhaust system was fitted? One would hope that manufacturers would test their motorcycles in normal running order, so the condition that they are sold in, and for which they obtained type-approval, but this is not always the case. Ducati, for instance, has chosen to publish more positive values, stating that "Technical data referring to power and torque was measured on an engine test stand at Ducati".[SUP][5][/SUP] Their published values are typically 5% higher than the homologation values, in normal running order.
[h=2]Weight Motorcycle weight is expressed in three ways: gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), dry weight and wet weight. GVWR is the maximum total weight of the motorcycle including all consumables, the rider, any passenger, and any cargo. It is generally well-understood and standardized, being defined by law and overseen by agencies such as the US Department of Transportation.[SUP][6][/SUP] In contrast, wet and dry weight are unstandardized measurements that refer to the weight of the motorcycle without rider, passengers or cargo, and either with (wet) or without (dry) a varying set of fluids such as fuel or lubricants, and the battery.[/h]Wet and dry weight are often used to make comparisons between different motorcycles, because all else being equal, a lighter motorcycle will generally perform and handle better than a heavier one.
The difference between GVWR and wet weight is how much the motorcycle can safely carry, including the rider, and any passenger and their cargo and other accessories. This is especially of interest in touring motorcycles because the greater the difference between GVWR and wet weight, the more gear and supplies may be brought.
[h=3]Dry weight As its weight changes during riding, the dry weight of a motorcycle typically excludes the gasoline (or other fuel). Dry weight, in this sense, can directly be used for comparison with (FIM) weight limits, which pertain to the motorcycle in operating condition. It is also part of the homologation tests,[SUP][7][/SUP] and it is found on the EC Certificate of Conformity as unladen mass.[SUP][8][/SUP] This dry weight could also be useful in comparing different models, with different fuel tank capacities. However, manufacturers may also exclude some or all of the following: engine oil, coolant, or brake fluid, and this makes such a comparison difficult. Obviously when any of these is excluded, the specified dry weight no longer pertains to the motorcycle in running order, and thereby becomes misleading. Some manufacturers even exclude the battery, but as the weight of the battery is mainly in the lead, this is even more misleading.[/h]So there is no standardized way to test the dry weight of a motorcycle. Inconsistencies may be found between a motorcycle manufacturer's published dry weight and motorcycle press and media outlet's published dry weight. This is due to different testing techniques, mainly differences in what is being excluded, and a lack of defining how the test was done. A battery is typically included in the dry weight by manufacturers (with the exception of at least one), but it may not be included by media outlets. On the other hand, some press and media outlets only exclude fuel to define their dry weight. For a typical sport bike, the difference between wet weight and manufacturer claimed dry weight is around 70 lb (32 kg).[SUP][9][/SUP] This difference includes around 30 lb (14 kg) of gasoline, 7 lb (3.2 kg) of engine oil, 7 lb (3.2 kg) of coolant, and 9 lb (4.1 kg) of battery. These weights are even larger for bigger motorcycles with higher capacities, and attempting to compare the dry weights of air-cooled versus water-cooled motorcycles can be even more misleading.
While its weight is quite small, and hydraulic fluid is not strictly speaking a lubricant, it is a liquid that might be excluded during shipping. It is not safe to assume that it is either included or excluded in the dry weight. Hydraulic fluid might be found on a particular bike's front brake and reservoir, plus maybe a rear brake with a reservoir, and maybe also in a hydraulic clutch with its own reservoir. It may add a few ounces to the uncertainty.
Ducati has in the past used the term "Ducati weight", pertaining to a value excluding the battery as well as all fluids, but have since begun using "dry weight" for this.[SUP][10][/SUP]
Beginning in 2009, the four major Japanese manufacturers and BMW, began publishing the wet weight rather than dry, usually providing some explanation for what this means. Since then most other manufacturers have followed, in order to comply with EC directives that explicitly state that the values pertain to the vehicle in running order. Honda describes it as curb weight (aka kerb weight) and says this means the bike is "ready to ride." Others say all fluids are included and the fuel tank is at least 90% full. Erik Buell Racing gives "Wet Weight (No Fuel)" for the 2012 1190RS motorcycle,[SUP][11][/SUP] while KTM gives a "Weight without fuel approx."[SUP][12][/SUP]
[h=3]Wet weight The wet weight of a motorcycle includes, but is not limited to fuel, engine oil, coolant, brake fluid, and battery.[/h]There is no global standardized way to test the wet weight of a motorcycle. In the EU, Council Directive 93/93/EEC specifies wet weight as "mass in running order", which includes all equipment normally fitted to a bike such as windscreen, tool kit and at least 90% of its fuel capacity.[SUP][13][/SUP]Motorcycle manufacturers will rarely publish wet weight measurements and inconsistencies will almost always be found between different motorcycle press and media outlets. This is due to different testing techniques, differences in what is being included, and by the organization doing the testing omitting an explanation of how they weighed the motorcycle.

 

[LivinLOS]

And finally LoS decided to make a VIN comment so I will ask 4 questions from hopefully someone who does not speculate:
1/ When you get the mandatory check up before paying the DoT fees the first thing they always do is copy the VIN number. So unless we are going conspiracy theory or BS like welded over / ground / restamped then the numbers have to match bike to book.
2/ According to what I have read some bikes have a vin plate and others just use the steering head stamp.
3/ Chiang Mai DoT have a set in concrete policy re: registration of certain bikes.
4/ Bikes cannot always been transferred from certain provinces dating back to years ago when provinces and their DoTwere individual entities. Any comments from anyone knowing the facts.

This is precisely my point (and you didnt actually answer.. Is the VIN a DRZ VIN from the right model year ??) so many people just think book = book, or that if the DMV have passed it it has to be legal (until it isnt) but in Thailand you have a myriad of different quality of books.. From pretty useless done badly recycled books (wrong make, age that cannot fit the model, etc think honda wave numbers stamped on a 900 !! seen it first hand) up to perfectly done best of the best grey books (exact model, exact age, etc but this is rare) that its physically impossible to tell if the frame numbers have been modified (forensic x ray spectography aside which is beyond Thailands ability) as everything matches. Up to of course the proper full legal taxes paid and legal registration. People seem too lazy to check this until some clampdown and it bites them in the ass or prevents a sale.. Didnt we just see a failed sale on here a few months ago when the owner was shocked (shocked I tells ya) to find he had a book and VIN that didnt actually match the model and age of his bike which he had owned for ages believing to be legal, when he then went to sell it ??

The issue is for 'cheaper' bikes such as say DRZs and the sort of older 400s running around Thailand is the economics of legal registration made little sense and so the vast majority I have seen have recycled books. for Hondas CB400s and the like, being so common this was easier to do well, finding a correct book to transplant, for something rare it became much harder. In fact every DRZ I bothered to check out was running on a recycled book, I am sure there were some legal ones but all I looked at had ways to see they had a modified history. Even when the VIN number is right for the model and year and you can sort of relax look for a period in the bikes history in the rear pages where it changes color and engine number over a short period of time is a give away for even the transplanting of the precise same model year make etc between two machines.

Its easy to look up VIN numbers to model years online and as long as the VIN number is of a suzuki DRZ from the correct year of the model of the bike, grey book or not, DMV are unable to prove it whatever suspicions they may come up with. At that point they can go whistle.

My DRZ is a grey book, so is my brothers (So was pikeys.. So was at least one of Phils.. Etc etc etc) I did the research and one was a RGV250 frame number another was IIRC a GSF400 with an engine change from 4 cyl to single, at least both sourced from Suzuki bikes at approx ages that fit.. Thai books dont actually have a 'model' field only manufacturer, cc, cylinders, age, etc. Both are what they are, bent books but fine to ride on cross borders and tax each year, able to be put in anyones name, etc etc so functional, but clearly bent !!! I would of course at sale make sure the buyer knows its a bent book.. Thats the nature of the beast with the cheaper bikes. My fireblade is on a fully legal book (Tho phuket had an incorrect and illegal interpretation of excise laws which it took me a long fight to prove them wrong.. any post 97 bike assembled from parts needed to have the excise recorded in the back of the book something no other province I know of insist on.. The lies and tricks they did to scam 100s of expats down that way out of mega money I could write pages on.. outright theft totaling millions done by Phuket customs office) but thats probably as a higher value, big CC, japper import at the time, it probably made sense to pay the cost of a legit book for the blade.

Its amazing how many owners think they have a legit book, but when you plug the VIN in its either the wrong make, model, model year, etc.. I would say this is well over 50% of the under 600cc market that have had frame number mods, actually did it myself with my old 400 bandit, very easy to make it appear functionally perfect and my guy managed to get me a book that was for the same aged GSF400 so exact match and hard to tell it has been done.. However the model make and year is easy to check and I dont understand how so many owners dont know their own bikes and paperwork.

 

[LivinLOS]

The 4 Q's

1/ When you get the mandatory check up before paying the DoT fees the first thing they always do is copy the VIN number. So unless we are going conspiracy theory or BS like welded over / ground / restamped then the numbers have to match bike to book.

Yes the VIN number is the 'key' of the bike.. Everything else can change, color, engine numbers and capacity, but VIN numbers cannot.. Thats why if you write off a frame, you cant legally change a new frame out (Kwaker and the manufacturers here can restamp a blank I am informed.. Us little guys cannot.. Bizarrely tho its totally legal to cut off the head stock with the old VIN, weld on the rear of your new frame blank and thats OK !!!! Horribly unsafe but fully legal !!!).

But the grinding and restamping of frame numbers is so prevalent to be endemic. Hence the flood of grey books. The higher up the food chain you go with bikes the less it happens as economics of going legal make more sense.

2/ According to what I have read some bikes have a vin plate and others just use the steering head stamp.

Some have plates but every bike with a plate I have personally seen also had a stamped number.. I was very pissed at Richo who removed my VIN plate and sprayed my frame and didnt re-attach my VIN plate, losing the mount pints under the paintwork !! Still the frame VIN was protected and is still there but up to then I had both.

Just because I have not seen one doesnt mean some manufacturer out there doesnt do plate only..

3/ Chiang Mai DoT have a set in concrete policy re: registration of certain bikes.

Elaborate ?? Unsure of the question..

4/ Bikes cannot always been transferred from certain provinces dating back to years ago when provinces and their DoTwere individual entities. Any comments from anyone knowing the facts.

Yes non perfect grey books are often stuck in the province they are currently in.. Depending on the bribery tolerated in the destination province to overlook issues.. Sometimes these can change name, sometimes they cant.

On Phuket we had a incredibly difficult DMV, they would say anything modified made the bike impossible to sell.. Meaning aftermarket indicators etc.. They saw it as thier job to make big bike private sales as hard as they could.. why ?? Because you then had to pay a fixer, who was paying them bribes, and they all made money at your expense. I had a fat girl in the DMV I took cakes to, who would go googly eyes and rub my hand and solve most issues for me, but sometimes you simply had to pay a fixer to push less trivial issues through.


I also had a fine run in with CM DMV.. The boss woman told me that trailers could not be legally used and were impossible to have registration for, and lost massive face when I handed her my trailer registration papers on bangkok plates, but then made it so damn difficult to bring the trailer to a CNX plate giving me a run around and conflicting issues for a while. Out of stubborn spite I worked on it for ages until they had to issue me a CNX plate for it when I could have just changed name in bangkok. These little fiefdoms simply make their own rules up, applied however they want, changing at the next crackdown !!

 

[LivinLOS]

How to Read a Vin Number on a Suzuki | eHow

That will tell you if its bent or not.. If you post the VIN (minus the last 6 digits which is the machine ID code for privacy) I can easily tell you if its a legit DRZ code and what year it is.

Petchaburi and Chonburi are the 2 worst locations in Thailand for bent plates. Either of those 2 need super super caution.

Back in about 04 or 05 100's of blank books went missing in Chonburi and you could have books and plates and were not even in the system.. Just outright forgeries.. Of course chonburi and pattaya being a hub of money talks. It was this theft of 100's of books which caused one of the first major crackdowns I remember in Phuket.

 

[screamingeagle]

LoS - good to see you back. These later posts look and sound like the LoS of old whose posts were factual and entertaining. Unless your HRT just kicked in I think someone might have misused your account to derail a sale etc.

As for your(?) last 3 posts:

I bought my DRZ as a grey and knew it was one. I checked before I bought and like you I am pretty sure there are no 100%ers here. They are all grey.
Like you I know how to make one a 100%(grain of salt) but the cost cannot be justified for the value of the bike.
I considered a lot of options before purchasing but could not justify an anaemic KLX or CRF the same weight as a DRZ but 50% of the power. Also I did not want the high maintenance costs of an MX type.
BTW without stereotyping have you ever tried to explain provinces and grey books to a Frenchman? OMG!.

Now you are aware as I previously alluded to that VIN & Frame numbers are not necessarily the same, depending on what part of the world they come from, a frame number might have no relationship to a VIN and requires a separate decoder.
I have 2 bikes that used to have a VIN plate that was removed like your other bike.

Up above are you saying they used an RGV250 frame or restamped the number?

Your comment about CM DoT says it all. One of my bikes is Bangkok registered 100% legit and I would not transfer it via CM even with a relationship there. BTW you know you can buy ready built trailers in Chaing Mai?

I read your comment on grinding and welding. To be very good at it requires a lot of skill. The ones I have seen in other countries are recognisable. To do a "perfect" one here would require a large and well equipped group with skills and gear beyond what I have seen. Not saying they do not exist.

Anything that came out of Pattaya or Phuket requires an exorcism.

PS I have enjoyed this. Don't let that bad person take over again!

 

[LivinLOS]

I bought my DRZ as a grey and knew it was one.

But didnt you say it was a legit book.. Now its not ?? And you knew this ?? Kind of an important detail no ??

If its not how well done is it ?? Age of the bike v age of the book ?? Frame number from what donor ?? Some are closer than others (I honestly have seen a 150cc donor book put onto a big chopper).. If it cant move province it means something is glaringly out.. Often when stuck in a province they can change name with a local fixer.. But for how long until they crackdown is the risk with that. Last time I tried anything like this, if the bikes make, cyl, and age were correct, even if the frame numbers were changed, it could change province, as they dont have a database of every frame code to model (they dont track 'model' as I mentioned earlier) and if that was the only thing not right, it would transfer.

The grey book I did on my bandit 400, by virtue of being the precise same age / machine / etc could change names, move provinces, and not be told apart from the doner. I was just lucky my Thai mechanic was able to find a perfectly matching book.

Up above are you saying they used an RGV250 frame or restamped the number?

Restamped.. An RGV frame or headstock in a DRZ wouldnt be pretty.

I read your comment on grinding and welding. To be very good at it requires a lot of skill. The ones I have seen in other countries are recognisable. To do a "perfect" one here would require a large and well equipped group with skills and gear beyond what I have seen. Not saying they do not exist.

Its not that difficult really.. They dont need to repack / rebuild the material simply grind / file down the frame number, the headstock is thick enough that a mm to remove the stamp is easily done.. And use the right appearing stamps (different ones on different manufacturers I was told) to apply the donor bikes and and respray the frame. I have seen some right bodges, with badly aligned stamps, obvious file marks, etc.. Also with care you can sometimes see more subtle tells like the headstock not being perfectly round and having a flatspot if they are not well done. But really I have seen many, that had to be restamped as the numbers were not the correct frame code for that model, and no way in hell I could detect anything out of the ordinary, even knowing it had to have happened and examining to the absolute best of my ability.

I am told in the west with stolen bike rings they can x ray the frame somehow and see stresslines into the metal when this has been done.. No real idea how and am sure this isnt done here.

 

[Loop]

I am told in the west with stolen bike rings they can x ray the frame somehow and see stresslines into the metal when this has been done.. No real idea how and am sure this isnt done here.

Some sort of metallurgical x-ray is used to find stress patterns in the steel.
I'm sure they can do it here but whether they'd bother? huge can of worms.

 

[screamingeagle]

LoS: Did you let that fruitcake post again in your stead?? Please show me where I said anything other than it had a green book. I do not fabricate information unlike someone here I can mention in previous posts.
Anyone genuine callers had it explained to them. If they listened and understood. Only had an issue with one guy (French may be) who denied the possibility as he had previously owned a DRZ. I only lost true active sales interest over the BS facts posted by sales derailers.

Portable Xray scanning is prevalent in the aircraft and other key industries they do not bother to use it on vehicles except on TV shows and key reasons.

Chiang Mai is one province with issues as you have identified yourself.

Actually locked into a province is dependent on the way the book was put together. The following is pure conjecture of course via a fixer. I obviously would have no knowledge of the way or the sources:
e.g Book locked in to province = 45k baht
Book open to certain provinces = 90k baht
"Genuine" book = 160k baht. No restrictions.

Do the maths.

& remember a VIN plate should have a frame number on it whether they are the same or not. A frame number does not have to be related to the VIN except here (Thailand) where a lot of bikes use it correct or not.
When a grey book is being set up a VIN plate could contradict the book but a frame number being used as a VIN does not necessarily unless someone has the tables to decode it.

- - - Updated - - -

Some sort of metallurgical x-ray is used to find stress patterns in the steel.
I'm sure they can do it here but whether they'd bother? huge can of worms.

Yup. Spot on.

 

[LivinLOS]

Please show me where I said anything other than it had a green book. I do not fabricate information unlike someone here I can mention in previous posts.

But it was stated over and over that it was a fair price for a legit fully legal green book.. An assumption based on your listing that you didnt correct yet appear to now claim to be in full knowledge of.

You even said

So unless we are going conspiracy theory or BS like welded over / ground / restamped then the numbers have to match bike to book.

Its hardly conspiracy theory when you knew full well that was precisely what had happened..

Listing a bike for sale with a bent Petchaburi plate and not stating it, when you clearly know this, is poor form. Especially with 'family contacts senior in the DMV' so must have informed you of the facts.

Saying you know all this now, makes your questioning of why bikes could not move province earlier in the thread very strange. Hardly worth me typing it all if it was known info. Bikes with imperfectly modified frame numbers and iffy books get stuck both in provinces and sometimes in a name.. Such is the issues you face when playing with bent reggos. All this has a value impact and should be clearly stated in for sale listings IMO.

Theres enough buyer beware issues out there without knowing info in advance you dont list.

Bikes sell anyway, theres precious few 'clean' DRZs listed.. But full disclosure for people who dont know the games that are played is only fair.

 

[BobS]

Some comments after reading this thread:

From brake034 - Post #7
"Here is the thing, OP posted a great bike with all legal papers at a solid price.
If the bike was on invoice (or other crap paperwork) only I would certainly take a different position!!"

From screamingeagle - Post #13
"The comment by Brake034 hits the nail on the head once again. Thanks B."

Personally, I would consider that an implication that the book was 100% legal.

 

[brake034]

:bash time!

 

[LivinLOS]

:bash time!

Is that..

Stop...

 

[screamingeagle]

Some comments after reading this thread:

From brake034 - Post #7
"Here is the thing, OP posted a great bike with all legal papers at a solid price.
If the bike was on invoice (or other crap paperwork) only I would certainly take a different position!!"

From screamingeagle - Post #13
"The comment by Brake034 hits the nail on the head once again. Thanks B."

Personally, I would consider that an implication that the book was 100% legal.

Bob: I was quoting Brakes' reference to the sale being railroaded nothing else. If you read something and make an assumption the "you make an Ass out of u and me: Plus as all forums have opinionated posters like we are experiencing from one individual ........................

Since the bike was listed all LoS has done is misrepresent and misquote the bikes specifications e.g. horsepower and weights specifically to cause issues. Then he decided to try the green book line when he was found out. Its called Trolling.

LoS: there is a movie relating to Chiang Mai called "LoSt in Thailand" take note.
After your hard on of speculation and what have you I did not expect the bike to sell and I can still sleep at night with out worry.

BTW: There are 3 more nice looking DRZ's for sale at the moment without greenbooks of any kind; one for 250k and another 147k in Chiang Mai. Go get them boy! Sic them brutus! Get your jollies!
Buy one maybe and do your successful book trick then you can write about it.

Brake:- Yep correct Tempus Fugit

 

[LivinLOS]

Since the bike was listed all LoS has done is misrepresent and misquote the bikes specifications e.g. horsepower and weights specifically to cause issues. Then he decided to try the green book line when he was found out. Its called Trolling.

Lets see who is miss representing and miss quoting on bike stats ??

You :: 48 bhp and 119 kg
Me :: Stock they are IIRC 33 bhp and 145 KG.

Suzuki says 145 kg and dyno says 35bhp. And you have the stones to say I am the one whose miss representing ?? Really ?? Who was closest ?? Who was out by almost 50% ??

Apparently you knew all along its on a bent book and dont say anything.. Thats poor form.. Everyone can read your posts and see how this went down. Honesty always wins.

When people list classifieds they really should be fully up front on what 'road legal' means or which 'green book' 'recycled book' etc etc they have on the bike to the best of their knowledge. Mistakes happen but you now claim that you knew it was a forged set of frame numbers all along while calling it 'conspiracy theory'. That doesn't put your integrity in a good light. You got called out on it and dont like it.. Not my problem.

 

[screamingeagle]

You are back at it again. Is that you or MC Hammer in your previous post?? Someone you admire? He had a problem with legitimacy as well.

Figures cut and pasted from a (not the) Suzuki site as you already know, not my figures. Why keep pretending? Write to the site as is your want. We know that you are familiar with the site.
I posted facts even going out and getting them between chores, not your speculation or guesses.

35HP dyno is back wheel not crank as you already know. 48hp is crank as an assumption (sorry Bob) as I think Nightrider mentioned.

140kg wet verified not speculated like all of your figures. You can read 20 bike articles and get 10 different figures. And you did not even bother to read the 2006 model ones!
This wet weight equates to 120kg dry using the Kwaka formula or 126 -127 by weight as I was honest enough to point out!

When you cannot tell the difference between a frame number and a vin number you make out you have an expertise even though you would know that a "pure" vin number usually has more digits (17 isn't it from memory??)

You speculate on Petchaburi province but I didn't so where did that come from? You know something?

Precious few clean DRZ's you post but previously you mentioned you have not found any - or am I mistaken? Another speculation?

I mentioned family friends not family at CM DoT who do not do funny business as a source of info yes - but your twisting of words speaks for volumes for accuracy and a desire to create further issues. As said earlier check your facts, do not speculate and leave sales alone.

On a sale would you really expect someone to put into print "possible dodgy greenbook come and get it" ? Come on be real. That is a conversation between the seller and purchaser not for the public. During the sales process it has to come to light anyway.

Like Brake said time - or not as you prefer.

 

[LivinLOS]

You speculate on Petchaburi province but I didn't so where did that come from? You know something?

Your telling me thats not Mark Rossi's old DRZ, stuck on a Petchaburi plate, that Phil at one time owned ?? I dont know that for sure, as I said a few times the picture didnt show up for me on the forum, however thats what it seems like from here and what I heard around.. Am I wrong ?? Or are you again trying to muddy the waters with questions instead of answers ??

On a sale would you really expect someone to put into print "possible dodgy greenbook come and get it" ? Come on be real. That is a conversation between the seller and purchaser not for the public. During the sales process it has to come to light anyway.

Any listing of a recycled booked bike should absolutely say so, otherwise your hiding a crucial negative from public knowledge, as bad as purposefully selling a bike with a known fault and not declaring it.. I absolutely would state it in the listing so as not to have any comeback later (and in fact have already publicly stated mine) or waste buyer and sellers time, as you say it nearly always has to come out in the wash.. Full disclosure of negatives is always the best policy.. My integrity is worth far more than some old bike sales value changing by maybe -20k. Also its not 'possible dodgy green book' it IS a dodgy green book !! Otherwise it would have a suzuki DRZ coded frame number and wouldn't have the issues moving provinces would it ?? When people make totally honest listings theres no question they have to hide from, theres no issues to be called out on.

All you needed to say was "Recycled green book".. People will still be interested and sales still get made, but all parties are then informed from the outset.. Hiding it usually backfires IMO, and when it does it looks bad, calling it a 'conspiracy theory' when you know it to be exactly how it actually is.. Well, others can make their own mind up, I know what I would call that.

 

[LivinLOS]

I mentioned family friends not family at CM DoT

We have family in senior management at Chiang Mai DoT

Its hard keeping track...

 

[MastaMax]

I tend to agree with LOS, especially on the green book status.

Haven't read in detail but when I typed DRZ 400 for sale without plate they all go for about 125-135k baht (150 max) and when I add with plate they go for about 200k. So very important difference.

no plates:
++++???Suzuki drz-400sm ?? 05+++ ( ??????????? ?????? DTT.????)
??? ???????!!! ????? Suzuki DRZ400 ??????+??? 130,000.- ????????? | ThaiSecondhand.com

with plates:
?????? DRZ 400 cc ???????|| OLX ????? dealfish

 

[LivinLOS]

Haven't read in detail but when I typed DRZ 400 for sale without plate they all go for about 125-135k baht (150 max) and when I add with plate they go for about 200k. So very important difference.

Theres nothing especially wrong with a grey book if your aware of it going in.. Its not even a bad price with 2 wheelsets. I would expect one without extras (and a recycled book) to be around the 160 and it has a set of dirt wheels, me importing hubs and sprockets etc to make up a second set easily ran me 15 - 20 by the time I put good tires on them.

Assuming a bit of leeway on any haggling.. Its still very worth looking at if someones after one.

 

[screamingeagle]

Your telling me thats not Mark Rossi's old DRZ, stuck on a Petchaburi plate, that Phil at one time owned ?? I dont know that for sure, as I said a few times the picture didnt show up for me on the forum, however thats what it seems like from here and what I heard around.. Am I wrong ?? Or are you again trying to muddy the waters with questions instead of answers ??



Any listing of a recycled booked bike should absolutely say so, otherwise your hiding a crucial negative from public knowledge, as bad as purposefully selling a bike with a known fault and not declaring it.. I absolutely would state it in the listing so as not to have any comeback later (and in fact have already publicly stated mine) or waste buyer and sellers time, as you say it nearly always has to come out in the wash.. Full disclosure of negatives is always the best policy.. My integrity is worth far more than some old bike sales value changing by maybe -20k. Also its not 'possible dodgy green book' it IS a dodgy green book !! Otherwise it would have a suzuki DRZ coded frame number and wouldn't have the issues moving provinces would it ?? When people make totally honest listings theres no question they have to hide from, theres no issues to be called out on.

All you needed to say was "Recycled green book".. People will still be interested and sales still get made, but all parties are then informed from the outset.. Hiding it usually backfires IMO, and when it does it looks bad, calling it a 'conspiracy theory' when you know it to be exactly how it actually is.. Well, others can make their own mind up, I know what I would call that.

Have no problem with using the words "recycled" however I wait till I am talking to what could be a genuine buyer before saying anything as there are too many idiots out there who would fasten on the word and possibly create legal issues. May be I am being cautious but thats the way it is.
I also notice you are very selective in what you report here and only using what suits you in the conversation.

Yes it is Marks old bike with more money spent on it since purchase - viz radiators, larger battery, tyres, respoke, carby rebuild, fork seals. The list goes on but it was my choice to buy the bike and spend the money. I am not looking to get the money back just have another plan and too many bikes.

Now if you reckon you are sop high and mighty: How many DRZ's have been sold either on this forum or others with your wording?? How many did you attempt to derail?? You have admitted you are not aware of any clean DRZ's therefore by your logic they were all dodgy.

As to the province BS. It all depends on what you pay for the book. The old adage you get what you pay for holds here.
If you try the VIN decoder on a frame number (11 digits from memory) you can get amzing results which is what I think you have done in your quest for righteousness.

 

[screamingeagle]

I tend to agree with LOS, especially on the green book status.

Haven't read in detail but when I typed DRZ 400 for sale without plate they all go for about 125-135k baht (150 max) and when I add with plate they go for about 200k. So very important difference.

no plates:
++++???Suzuki drz-400sm ?? 05+++ ( ??????????? ?????? DTT.????)
??? ???????!!! ????? Suzuki DRZ400 ??????+??? 130,000.- ????????? | ThaiSecondhand.com

with plates:
?????? DRZ 400 cc ???????|| OLX ????? dealfish

What do you mean by plate?? Number plate or vin plate of which you do not always have one.

As for registration mine is and goes across borders nil hastle.

The 4 bikes on Thai secondhand, dealfish are invoice only - no registration no number plate. Ad another 90k to the purchase price and you have a province free DRZ. I think the lowest on Dealfish is the 147k in Chiang Mai.
Add the numbers and you get 237k for a recycled 2006(?) DRZ or 260k plus for a 2007.

So please Masta give us more info.................

Despite all the crap and mis information in this thread it has been illuminating and knowledge worthy except as I keep saying of the sale being rail roaded by a third party for personal reasons.

 

[MastaMax]

What do you mean by plate?? Number plate or vin plate of which you do not always have one.

As for registration mine is and goes across borders nil hastle.

The 4 bikes on Thai secondhand, dealfish are invoice only - no registration no number plate. Ad another 90k to the purchase price and you have a province free DRZ. I think the lowest on Dealfish is the 147k in Chiang Mai.
Add the numbers and you get 237k for a recycled 2006(?) DRZ or 260k plus for a 2007.

So please Masta give us more info.................

Despite all the crap and mis information in this thread it has been illuminating and knowledge worthy except as I keep saying of the sale being rail roaded by a third party for personal reasons.

My point was just that a fully legal book and number plate are worth a lot of money, that's it.

 

[screamingeagle]

My point was just that a fully legal book and number plate are worth a lot of money, that's it.

Thx for the explanation

We do not think that exists for DRZ's but could always be proven wrong, but who is ready to put their balls on the line and let their bike & book be microscopically investigated.
Have to be crazy to do that unless you personally imported it and paid the customs duties, had the carby motor tested, etc.

 

[LivinLOS]

Have no problem with using the words "recycled" however I wait till I am talking to what could be a genuine buyer before saying anything as there are too many idiots out there who would fasten on the word and possibly create legal issues. May be I am being cautious but thats the way it is.

The kind of person who doesnt want to buy a bike on a recycled book either wont call if he reads the advert or wont buy it when he hears it on the phone. It simply weeds out the non buyers without all the hassle of trying to sugar coat it. Its always better to read about some issue right up front rather than gradually have it leaked, when it feels (is) hidden.

You speculate on Petchaburi province but I didn't so where did that come from? You know something?

Your telling me thats not Mark Rossi's old DRZ, stuck on a Petchaburi plate, that Phil at one time owned ??

Yes it is Marks old bike with more money spent on it since purchase

Strike 3 for the DRZ brain trust :LOL.. You see its exactly that kind of obfuscation which makes a sale feel iffy.. So simple to say straight off but instead trying to dance around it makes it appear far worse.

Theres nothing wrong with a recycled book as long as its out in the open and all parties go into it eyes wide open.

except as I keep saying of the sale being rail roaded by a third party for personal reasons.

The sale isnt being railroaded, your wildly out specs were commented on and the exact nature of the legality of the book established.. If it had been an accurate listing at the start there would be nothing to mention.. Thats why negatives should be stated, nothing to hide is nothing to defend.

I keep saying, that its not a far out price, and if I didnt have a DRZ or other big bore road going super moto I would be shopping for one and expect to pay around that price if condition was right.

For some reason the sale photos dont show up.. Was it the yellow one or the black one with the green stripe rims ?? I think the black one got a 440 kit installed so assume the yellow ?

 

[screamingeagle]

The kind of person who doesnt want to buy a bike on a recycled book either wont call if he reads the advert or wont buy it when he hears it on the phone. It simply weeds out the non buyers without all the hassle of trying to sugar coat it. Its always better to read about some issue right up front rather than gradually have it leaked, when it feels (is) hidden.





Strike 3 for the DRZ brain trust :LOL.. You see its exactly that kind of obfuscation which makes a sale feel iffy.. So simple to say straight off but instead trying to dance around it makes it appear far worse.

Theres nothing wrong with a recycled book as long as its out in the open and all parties go into it eyes wide open.



The sale isnt being railroaded, your wildly out specs were commented on and the exact nature of the legality of the book established.. If it had been an accurate listing at the start there would be nothing to mention.. Thats why negatives should be stated, nothing to hide is nothing to defend.

I keep saying, that its not a far out price, and if I didnt have a DRZ or other big bore road going super moto I would be shopping for one and expect to pay around that price if condition was right.

For some reason the sale photos dont show up.. Was it the yellow one or the black one with the green stripe rims ?? I think the black one got a 440 kit installed so assume the yellow ?

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................

Aren't you a septic?? You seem to know everything. Its just to me strike 3 means your out. Which is true in more ways than one.

I replied to this once but it seems to have disappeared into the ether.

Black DRZ since renovated. Check your codecs if you cannot see the picture.

Where do you get 2 wheelsets from?? Spare tyres and tubes do not equate to wheels. No assumptions please. Next it will be the racing radiators vs standard!

No wild specs either straight cut and paste which you already know- plus you only pick and chose which specs to compare against. You even railed against the actual weight and rear wheel HP at one stage.

Still disagree about advertising selling/riding a known fluffy green book. Chiang Mai is the town where they dob you in for anything. To me it would be like
Oscar Pistorius taking an ad out in a South African newspaper saying " it was intentional" Some one would call the cops or DoT and say look at this.

And where you mention they will not call if they do not want a recycled one: OMG: If the lonely guys are any indication I do not think mentioning recycled
books would stop them or the ones who do not like 21" wheels or the ones who say Chiang Mai has outlawed aftermarket exhausts.

BTW: Is the guy who bought the MX the protege you mentioned?

Happy Trails

 

[LivinLOS]

Black DRZ since renovated. Check your codecs if you cannot see the picture.

Where do you get 2 wheelsets from?? Spare tyres and tubes do not equate to wheels. No assumptions please.

In your listing you say its a SM.. So it has to have supermoto 17 inch wheels and the upside down forks yes ?? Otherwise its not a DRZ400SM..

Then you ALSO state "Yoko Super 7 rims (21' & 17") plus offroad tyres" So it has a set of dirt wheels right ?? Or just rims and tires and no hubs ?? Or is it not a DRZ400SM after all this ?? I mean really... Its not going to turn out this isnt even an SM and its a DRZ-S or something ??


I have no idea why I dont see the picture.. theres no 'attachment' for me.. Lew also stated he cant see the picture or pictures. Logged out and logged back in, has no effect. Codecs all up to date and fine and anyway JPEG image files wouldnt need a codec.

 

[johnnysneds]

Sef, can I hire you as my lawyer next time I need one?