2012 Honda CRF250L: CBR250R goes dual-sport

[Davevb]

Looking at that first pic you can see how tall the engine is in the frame and the lack of ground clearance. Is it much taller than the KLX unit? Being slanted forward and put lower in the frame is a good thing though and I doubt the ground clearance will be an issue unless you are say in a river crossing and get it stuck on a rock, but then that may happen anyway. Having the CoG lower will make up for it in handling though I reckon. Very interested to see it side by side with a KLX....

 

[garethw]

I saw one yesterday in one of the Honda dealers in Rayong, have not noticed one in Pattaya yet. There is also bit of a write up on Thai visa of a guy who collected his yesterday.

 

[KTMphil]

Niyom Panich Honda dealer in Chiang Mai (500 meters north of Airport Plaza, next to the Toyota dealer), currently has 4 white Honda CRF 250 L's. 3 are in the showroom, one is being paraded around town in the back of a Toyota Vigo.

They are getting a lot of interest from the Thai's

Now - the problem ordering one of these in from the Niyom Panich Honda dealer in Chiang Mai, is that they are telling people there is a 1 month delay for delivery. they are offering a 3,000 bht promotion which is quite attractive.

You can call Kunya at the Niyom Panich Honda dealer in Chiang Mai to talk about and order a bike on 086- 919 1677


There has been a lot of talk about the build quality of this Thai built bike, especially the welding, so managed to get some detailed shots of the welds. They look ok physically, but not very pretty.

This one didn't look very nice hidden by paint

Engine assembly looked great

 

[KTMphil]

Rear axle adjustment on the swing-arm looked good, didn't look cheap as it does on many low dollar bikes

No RPM counter

The clutch action had that hot knife through butter ease to it that many Honda models feel like.


All-in-all looks like it will be a big seller

 

[KTMphil]

Honda 250 CRF discussion

The Honda CRF 250 L - more on that in the link below

honda-f61/2012-honda-crf250l-cbr250r-goes-dual-sport-t1044.html

 

[harrygps]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

A long long story. But now the CRF is available. But I´m sorry, every view I take, it becomes more ugly. Let´s take a test next time on the Doi Pui.
Wow, 890000 THB for the Super Tenere, that´s nearly 300000 more than in Europe. Or an extra ER-6n for free

 

[LED Kev]

Nice photos

how easy do you think it will be to add an electronic rev counter to the bike for those that would like one

 

[LivinLOS]

Nice photos

how easy do you think it will be to add an electronic rev counter to the bike for those that would like one

Koso make a range of aftermarket gauges that can pickup revs and speed, even gear position by doing rev v speed calls etc.. I use a micro Koso unit on my street fightered blade.. Gets a bit lost at high speeds tho :RE

 

[Davevb]

I can't help wondering why that engine is so big compared to the KLX. Look at how deep the crank case is and how low the frame rails drops down to cradle it. I think the lower seat height will make it popular but I am leaning towards the KLX right now. Maybe the low engine enables Honda to lower the seat height but at over 6' it isn't a concern for me. Right now the KLX looks better suited to off road, this CRF seems suited to the road and the fact they just grabbed the CBR motor and put it in the CRF doesn't make it right. At least the KLX was purpose built. Unless the CRF is better than the KLX I will be inclined to go with the Kawa...

 

[Steve Canyon]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

Looks like the rental company's are selling up and buying these...

I like it, pimped and powered it's going to be the nuts...the potential is massif

I'm thinking Honda have a good idea what's going to happen here..

Cant wait to see what happens when Phil starts throwing some bits at his.. :RO

 

[Davevb]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

It's a shame Honda didn't make this bike to be something worthy of potential. That motor- while good business sense to use an existing engine, just seems to be too big (and most likely heavy) for the bike. Just look at how low it sits in the frame. They should have made a dedicated engine for it, they are, after all, The Big H. How many motorcycle engines have they produced over the years? I wish it was a 200k Baht bike, aluminium frame, better and more compact engine, adjustable suspension. I would be all over it......As it is and for the price, you get what you pay for. Pretty mediocre. People will be happy with them, they will be ultra reliable, they will have street appeal and they will sell loads of them but I think it has fallen short of what it should have been. Honda will crow and the majority of buyers only care for the bottom line-how cheap it is. Deposits will be made, finance will be given and there will be many happy riders abandoning their waves, finos and PCX's for one. You couldn't make it into something decent with any amount of money, the basics just aren't there. I am still after one though or the KLX, may they best bike win! (Right now I am leaning towards the KLX - Honda will have had to come up with something pretty special to better it)

 

[KTMphil]

Lan from C&P service, who rents bikes out of a living & is an excellent mechanic, took a close look at the Honda CRF 250 L's yesterday & has some comments.


1. Travel (available compression movement the shock absorber can move under load, before it bottoms out) ) in the the rear suspension is much less than the KLX 250, he says with a big farrang on it this could be an issue. Actually 2wheels went to see the CRF 250 L and commented on the same thing after sitting on it.

2. Spokes in the wheels look very thin compared to the KLX 250. This is just a visual observation, might not be an issue, we shall see.


3. The tip of the foot gear selector does not fold in/ swivel , might be an issue in a crash causing the lever to bend or break off, KJLX 250 has a swivel end on the foot gear selector.

 

[2wheels]

Looking forward to your KLX v CRF 'Shootout' Phil.

Some Motocrossing plus some road riding and also some dirt track riding on them both, swapping riders along the way.

 

[AlexUSA]

Took one for a test ride yesterday at the dealership near the airport. It was pretty much what I expected - a road bike. The KLX front shock seems better than this front and I didn't see any adjusters either front or rear on the CRF. The front shock follows the current trend (KSR, KLX125, etc.) of manufacturers fitting inverted shocks mainly for appearance only.

There was a little jump set up in the dealership parking lot and the heavy weight and suspension made it difficult to keep the front end up when launching off the lip.

I think it will sell well here in Thailand as it does look pretty nice but this bike has even less off-road DNA than the KLX. A 35,000 baht 25-year-old XRL250 would run circles around it in terms of handling, acceleration, weight, and ease of modification and maintenance. For any dirt use, the KLX seems like the better option still if you want a made-in-Thailand bike and are willing to make some modifications.

 

[bigntall]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

You know what is even more of a disappointment? That the brand new 2012 Honda seems like it may be bested by Kawasakis KLX 250 that has not changed at all (other than FI) since 1996. How very sad. The bar for small displacement dual sport bikes is disguntingly low.

 

[AlexUSA]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

I wish it was a 200k Baht bike, aluminium frame, better and more compact engine, adjustable suspension. I would be all over it......As it is and for the price, you get what you pay for. Pretty mediocre. People will be happy with them, they will be ultra reliable, they will have street appeal and they will sell loads of them but I think it has fallen short of what it should have been.

I don't see the market here for a street-legal, aluminum frame competition enduro bike. Who will buy it? How could a manufacturer possibly make money on this in Thailand? And do I really want my competition enduro bike being compromised with emissions gear, mirrors, etc that I will pay for and then remove anyway?

If you have 200,000 baht to spend on an off-road competition bike, you can easily buy a 250cc WR-F or similar for that price. You can ride it on the street with no hassle in most parts of this country. If you want a road bike, Thailand now has another good option in this new CR. Seems to me that Honda's doing everything right with this model. Nobody thought this was going to be a real enduro bike - it's exactly what the market is asking for.

 

[Steve Canyon]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

It's a shame Honda didn't make this bike to be something worthy of potential.

Did you not see these pictures??

The Engine has lots of new Technology within!

Honda have got it just right..... :RO

 

[KTMphil]

OK - Got mine , this might be the first registered CRF in Chiang Mai




Nice wheelie girl!




Used Trac Transport up from Bangkok, great service --ONLY 1,500 BHT FROM BANGKOK TO CHIANG MAI!!!!!!!!! more on them in this link vendors/bike-transportation-in-thailand-t1860.html




Feels great so far ,,, hopefully do a test against a KLX 250 tomorrow

 

[jb2112]

Best Wheelie Inside the Moat!

 

[KTMphil]

Welds look ugly!

 

[KTMphil]

Any of the RideAsia people want to take it for a spin feel free to stop by.

 

[KTMphil]

Also only one radiator on which is on the LHS of the frame

Lan from C&P service, who rents bikes out of a living & is an excellent mechanic, took a close look at the Honda CRF 250 L's yesterday & has some comments.


1. Travel (available compression movement the shock absorber can move under load, before it bottoms out) ) in the the rear suspension is much less than the KLX 250, he says with a big farrang on it this could be an issue. Actually 2wheels went to see the CRF 250 L and commented on the same thing after sitting on it.

2. Spokes in the wheels look very thin compared to the KLX 250. This is just a visual observation, might not be an issue, we shall see.


3. The tip of the foot gear selector does not fold in/ swivel , might be an issue in a crash causing the lever to bend or break off, KJLX 250 has a swivel end on the foot gear selector.

 

[LivinLOS]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

It's a shame Honda didn't make this bike to be something worthy of potential. That motor- while good business sense to use an existing engine, just seems to be too big (and most likely heavy) for the bike. Just look at how low it sits in the frame. They should have made a dedicated engine for it, they are, after all, The Big H. How many motorcycle engines have they produced over the years? I wish it was a 200k Baht bike, aluminium frame, better and more compact engine, adjustable suspension. I would be all over it......

And then it comes back round to Kawasaki rumors of the klx450 at mid 200k money.. No idea if it will happen but that's the segment your talking, will sell a fraction as many as the Honda but much more desirable..

As it is and for the price, you get what you pay for. Pretty mediocre. People will be happy with them, they will be ultra reliable, they will have street appeal and they will sell loads of them but I think it has fallen short of what it should have been. Honda will crow and the majority of buyers only care for the bottom line-how cheap it is. Deposits will be made, finance will be given and there will be many happy riders abandoning their waves, finos and PCX's for one. You couldn't make it into something decent with any amount of money, the basics just aren't there. I am still after one though or the KLX, may they best bike win! (Right now I am leaning towards the KLX - Honda will have had to come up with something pretty special to better it)

Agree it will sell loads of them but it just looks like an exercise in bean counting and lowest common denominator to me..

 

[Davevb]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

It's a shame Honda didn't make this bike to be something worthy of potential.

Did you not see these pictures??

The Engine has lots of new Technology within!

Honda have got it just right..... :RO

Yes, I saw that picture (I actually was one who posted it first on one of the forums running a CRF thread) and yes, I too was excited but I think the reality is different. As I said, the basics are just not there to make the bike something competitive offroad. It is easy to dress a bike to make it look like it has the performance but look at all the KSR's running around dressed up in all the billet alloy parts (most of which are untested and unsafe) I am sure there will be a host of parts for the CRF to buy as well.

Honda have got it right as a business, they know who the majority of buyers for this bike are and are catering to them delivering a bike built down to the cheapest price possible so they can outsell their rival - the KLX. They have succeded.

They will never build a road trail with a performance edge as only a minority of riders would want that. They will tell you to buy a CRF-X on which you can win Enduros. I guess it is possible to change the suspension, modify the engine and get it as light as possible just as owners of the KLX are doing and it will be a fun bike that you can ride on and off the road but my old KTM 450 EXC came road registarable and they sold plenty of them.

It is a shame that Honda have not taken it a step up from the KLX. In fact, on paper, it appears they have made less of a bike, hence the price. Heavier, cheaper suspension, less ground clearanceand and an engine designed for a road bike...We will see shortly how it stacks up. Beleive me I am hoping it is better than a bike that has already been on the market for years.

I guess you are right, Honda have got it just right. A bike for the masses of which they will sell loads that has the looks and is cheaper than it's main rival. You will see many happy Thais punting these around the streets soon.

 

[LivinLOS]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

Where it may have some interest is following the modding scene.. Can be sure Thais will soon have heaps of stuff for them..

 

[Davevb]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

There isn't much for the KLX in that sense, I wonder if the CRF will be any different? i did hear that they race the CBR 250's in a one make series at Bira and although they can be modified all the parts need to come from Thailand so there is a good chance there will be already a good development in aftermarket parts for these engines, that could be great.

 

[jb2112]

I took a spin on Phil's bike this evening. Comparing it to my CBR I found it smoother and quieter, but just as powerful.

 

[bigntall]

The bike looks good from 15 feet Phil.

Be real curious how the powerband of the older XR(L) compares to this newer model. Joe (Joes Bikes) has some in his rental fleet. What you need Phil is a true comparison. Rent an older XR from Joe, have Alex UK bring his KLX, take your new CRF250L and do a run from 700 year stadium/Huey Thung Tao/ then up to Sutthep and down the tarmac for a fun comparison. Also swing by a scale at the post office/shipping company and have them weighed. That would be some great information and really get some insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the models.

The "new" KLX is the same bike that was produced in 1996 aside from the FI. Kawasaki have amortized that model so well and if it beats Hondas new release (which the spec sheet hints at) that shows how low the bar is set in the 250 dual sport category. I'm betting the old XR from Joes will wax both models in terms of performance. Really really sad what is being flogged on the public.

As others have stated though it should do well in this market with the Honda badging, low seat height, and decent entry price.

 

[LED Kev]

Hi Phil,

Great wheelie - glad to see the bike is being run in properly :d

It's a pity about the welds as it looks a nice package

I be up next week and will come and have a look as I might get one

Looking forward to ride report

Can you send me the info on the transport company as it looks like they did a great cheap job and I might see if they can ship my er6n up to cm from BKK

 

[KTMphil]

Kev contact details for Trac Express Co. Ltd are below

Map of the location in the link

vendors/bike-transportation-in-thailand-t1860.html

Hi Phil,

Great wheelie - glad to see the bike is being run in properly :d

It's a pity about the welds as it looks a nice package

I be up next week and will come and have a look as I might get one

Looking forward to ride report

Can you send me the info on the transport company as it looks like they did a great cheap job and I might see if they can ship my er6n up to cm from BKK

 

[Davevb]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

I wish it was a 200k Baht bike, aluminium frame, better and more compact engine, adjustable suspension. I would be all over it......As it is and for the price, you get what you pay for. Pretty mediocre. People will be happy with them, they will be ultra reliable, they will have street appeal and they will sell loads of them but I think it has fallen short of what it should have been.

I don't see the market here for a street-legal, aluminum frame competition enduro bike. Who will buy it? How could a manufacturer possibly make money on this in Thailand? And do I really want my competition enduro bike being compromised with emissions gear, mirrors, etc that I will pay for and then remove anyway?

If you have 200,000 baht to spend on an off-road competition bike, you can easily buy a 250cc WR-F or similar for that price. You can ride it on the street with no hassle in most parts of this country. If you want a road bike, Thailand now has another good option in this new CR. Seems to me that Honda's doing everything right with this model. Nobody thought this was going to be a real enduro bike - it's exactly what the market is asking for.

The big problem for a lot of us is there just isn't anything really capable on and off road for sale here in Thailand which is road registerable. I am just not interested in something that cannot be registered and insured. A lot of us want a bike to go to Laos on. I would buy a Wr or the like tomorrow if I could get a green book for it. I think the KLX with mods is the closest you can get but is still underpowered and amazingly the new Honda appears to have fallen short. I totally agree that the market cannot support a higher end road trail. If they released the KLX 450 that would solve a lot of problems.

 

[Davevb]

Hard to beleive that one of these weighs the same as a KTM 690 Enduro.....

 

[KTMphil]

Hard to beleive that one of these weighs the same as a KTM 690 Enduro.....

But you could have 5 of them for the same money

 

[KTMphil]

Thailand motorcycle sales kept rising from January to May of 2011, reaching 858,806 units, up 14% year-on-year

http://www.chinamotorworld.com/viewnews.asp?id=1895

"According to a report of the Thailand "World Journal" on June 17th, Honda Thailand's managing director expressed that motorcycle sales kept rising in Thailand from January to May of 2011, reaching 858,806 units, up 14% year-on-year. It's expected that motorcycle sales will reach 1 million units in the first half of 2011 in Thailand.

he managing director pointed out that the sales of Honda motorcycle also increased to a total number of 608,617 units from January to May, up 17%, accounting for 71% of the total market share. Motorcycle sales in southern and northeastern Thailand had great increase. Honda's motorcycle sales in May were 132,868 units, up 33%. Factors like the beginning of new academic year and economic recovery stimulated the motorcycle sales".



Honda is in the business of return on capital. They can make an aluminum framed bike that will be better than any KTM (Toyota can make a car sexier than a Ferrari), but they don't because it doesn't make economic sense, demand at the return on capital retail price isn't there.

What Honda have done with the CRF 250 L is quite ingenious. There seems to be a huge developing market for 250cc enduro style bikes, Honda have developed a good looking enduro "styled" bike, with an great existing, modern, fuel injected engine (the CBR 250 engine with no additional R&D costs). So this has enabled them to offer the product at an interesting price.

For the majority of buyers (that give Honda the return on capital they require from this unit), the weight isn't an issue, MX/ enduro enthusiasts will turn their noses up at this bike, but it's not aimed at that market, because it's too small, at the end of the day it all boils down to the economics.

The bike looks good from 15 feet Phil.

Be real curious how the powerband of the older XR(L) compares to this newer model. Joe (Joes Bikes) has some in his rental fleet. What you need Phil is a true comparison. Rent an older XR from Joe, have Alex UK bring his KLX, take your new CRF250L and do a run from 700 year stadium/Huey Thung Tao/ then up to Sutthep and down the tarmac for a fun comparison. Also swing by a scale at the post office/shipping company and have them weighed. That would be some great information and really get some insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the models.

The "new" KLX is the same bike that was produced in 1996 aside from the FI. Kawasaki have amortized that model so well and if it beats Hondas new release (which the spec sheet hints at) that shows how low the bar is set in the 250 dual sport category. I'm betting the old XR from Joes will wax both models in terms of performance. Really really sad what is being flogged on the public.

As others have stated though it should do well in this market with the Honda badging, low seat height, and decent entry price.

 

[johnnysneds]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

The big problem for a lot of us is there just isn't anything really capable on and off road for sale here in Thailand which is road registerable. I am just not interested in something that cannot be registered and insured. A lot of us want a bike to go to Laos on. I would buy a Wr or the like tomorrow if I could get a green book for it. I think the KLX with mods is the closest you can get but is still underpowered and amazingly the new Honda appears to have fallen short. I totally agree that the market cannot support a higher end road trail. If they released the KLX 450 that would solve a lot of problems.

You can get a WR and a green book quite easily, I have one for mine.

 

[LivinLOS]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

The big problem for a lot of us is there just isn't anything really capable on and off road for sale here in Thailand which is road registerable. I am just not interested in something that cannot be registered and insured. A lot of us want a bike to go to Laos on. I would buy a Wr or the like tomorrow if I could get a green book for it. I think the KLX with mods is the closest you can get but is still underpowered and amazingly the new Honda appears to have fallen short. I totally agree that the market cannot support a higher end road trail. If they released the KLX 450 that would solve a lot of problems.

You can get a WR and a green book quite easily, I have one for mine.

Easily but not cheaply.. Kinda difference from say 200 ish to what ?? 400 ish ??

My plan if I was to cross borders a lot would be to get a uk regged one, in my name at my uk address, pay no taxes at all and just visa run it every 6 months.. I mean if you want the reggo to cross borders, it's self fulfilling.. Just depends if you want a bike for adventure touring and trail rides or a much leaner trail, enduro, off rd, machine..

Otherwise, as a value proposition, the drz with engine hop ups if you need a bit more pop, still seems to me to hit that 150 to 200 range with a Thai (grey) reg, crosses borders, workable service intervals, etc.. Sure it's not hardcore enduro, but then to cross borders and carry luggage etc, that's not really the style for that either.. In fact an xr650 starts sounding like the tool for that job..

 

[Davevb]

Re: New bike models in Chiang Mai

It's an interesting problem for me to try and solve at the moment, a good problem though!

here is my conundrum and I think I am not the only one around feeling it.

I live in CM, have a road bike and want to buy a road trail. Something I can ride around town, go out to the surrounding countryside and ride it home again, be able to take it off road when and where I want, be able to ride to Loas on it and have it totally legal with green book and insurance.

I am over 6' and 96kg.

To me there just seems to be a hole in between the KLX/CRF-L and things like Adventure bikes. The former, great, you can hack around all day, cheap parts, green book but at 250cc you have to admit they are underpowered. I just came off a KTM 450 EXC.....That's not easy to handle for the long ride home on the road.

Then with the adventure bikes they are good on the road but just too big to get into any serious stuff off road. I had a BMW 650 GS Dakar before.

I'm not interested in having to do border runs to keep my bike legal.

Something around 450cc would be the middle ground, small enough to get into it off road with power to spare (mostly the same size frames as 250's and little extra weight) and enough power to ride home without it sitting on the throttle stop and screaming. My first bike I bought was an XT 250 and have vivid memories laying on the tank and having it pegged, bored on the open road...

There are a few options around 400cc -DRZ's but with grey books?? I have a lot to lose here in Thailand...I am not convinced that if you have a serious accident you won't be in the shit....Or that you will be able to sell the bike later and transfer the name. I kind of made a promise to myself to not have a grey booked bike. I would love a WR 450 but if it is 400k (13 grand!....) to green book it that is getting a little crazy but just so I know is that what it would cost and is it straight forward enough?

I see the BMW 450X and 650 things but are they available? I think not. I wouldn't mind an XR 650 but are there any of those with green books getting around?

I would love a KTM 690 Enduro, I think that is the perfect solution for me. It's big but weighs the same as the CRF-L. It could handle off road needs but will be fine to ride long distances on road on. It is more off road orientated than the adventure bikes. You would need to decide on what tyres you want and compromise your on and off road riding to suit. But what? over 600k?? wow. I would have to have won the jackpot for one of those.

I reckon a KLX will have to be it for now, get into it for not a lot of money, mod it up a bit,tons of guys seem to go everywhere on them (I remember one guy caning it along with a bunch of us on our road bikes and never losing him), have some fun and in a few years who knows what may be available? I may be too broken to ride by then anyway! If I am riding it along on the throttle stop I should probably slow down and enjoy the scenery anyway.

Actually, after looking at the WR 250R that seems like a ripper little bike. if only Yamaha would bring them in for sale....Not much chance given it will be more expensive but even just a limited number? Please?

 

[Davevb]

Yet Yamaha went ahead and made the WR 250R which is pretty much what a 250cc road trail should be and they are also in the business of making money....It's just that being in Thailand they are catering to Thais who will always go for the cheaper option as long as it has the looks (and consequently "the face"). All Honda have done is build a bike that will under cut the main rival - the KLX. The fact that the KLX is the better bike (which is pretty obvious by now) will be lost on 90% of the buyers.

So congrats to Honda!

Like a lot of us here I have been eagerly waiting for Honda to release this bike and now it is here the realisation of what it is is a bit of a disapointment. I am going to buy something soon but unfortunately it is not going to be the CRF-L. Why buy something that is less of a bike that Kawasaki have been selling for years already? To save B10 000?

 

[LED Kev]

Excellent point - and this is why it will sell well

 

[LivinLOS]

My 2c.. I love my drz for exactly the description you gave.. It's my day to day bike, with super moto setup it's probably faster corner speed on tight roads than my fireblade, due to my own fear of the blades power and weight, I can feel like I can dominate the super moto more.. I have both wheel sets so have off rd or Laos rd capability but it stays in sm trim for local hooning as for trails locally it's heavy and I prefer multiple cheaper bikes than one ktm style big ticket one size fits all..

For little money you can add long range tanks, 440 kits, hot cams, and lower it's reliability for more pop.. Your still at half the cost of a wr.. With longer service intervals.. Sure it's not a light bike, but it's solid.. Could do the same with an xr, even more bulletproof but harder to find and limited electrics.. Or a well modded klx.. Tho I feel to really sort out a klx you spend more than just buying the drz to start with, but your upside is ongoing cheap parts supply.. Xr650 or klx650 big thumpers are rare as rocking horse shit.. And too heavy for tight technical trail imo.. Would love one if i could find a good one tho.. The drz's are findable, Phil's got a whole shed of them, pikey had a modded up one for sale for ages, mocyc has them come up all the time..

Grey books, if done well, are a non issue IMO.. It's getting them done, and the book in your name, that's the hard bit, once the DMV have put it in your name your pretty clean. Providing its the right type of book, eg right cc, right manufacturer, and right no of cyl.. Running a 4 cyl liter bike on a 125 single cyl sonic isn't fooling anyone.. Hell I just saw insurance pay out on a plateless bike as the car driver was at fault..

There's no right bike, it's all down to what you ride most, how hard you ride it, how fast you need it, how much you will spend.. I am just biased as I enjoy my dizzy for all round use a whole bunch.. I