URGENT! Need Health Info

[bikesncats]

I know this is unrelated to bikes but I need to know from pet owners here in Thailand if you ever had a dog getting sick displaying the following symptoms:
- Yellow eyes and gums followed by yellowing of the ears and belly skin
- The gums started bleeding and now has severe nose bleeding, even adrenaline doesn't stop it
- Urine is now dark yellow orange looking like it contains blood
- Mauve spots appear on belly and around the ear areas

The symptoms started 2 days ago and have been getting progressively worse and last night the bleeding started and today blood in the urine, the vet has prescribed adrenaline to stop the bleeding but it doesn't help and pills to clear the liver but it seems he is still getting worse at the moment.

If anyone had experience with such symptoms please let me know what it can be and what best course of treatment is applicable. Unfortunately I have not been able to find much online that could fit these symptoms and the vets are useless, the only good vet is now at the elephant hospital and can't find enough time to follow up except by phone.

The thought passed my mind that it could be ehrlichiosis...one of our puppies contracted Ehrlichia Canis and a tick could have passed it on but this was last year and the puppy is now well and healthy. I assume that Bubu, the affected dog, would have shown symptoms long before now. Thanks for taking the time...Alex.

 

[Lone Rider]

Sorry to hear that. Did the vet check for jaundice? see: Yellow Skin (Jaundice) in Dogs | petMD

 

[bikesncats]

Sorry to hear that. Did the vet check for jaundice? see: Yellow Skin (Jaundice) in Dogs | petMD

He definitely has some jaundice but the reason needs to be found. We brought Bubu right away to the vet in surin for blood tests but we're still waiting on the results from that unprofessional excuse of a hormonal biatch...

I remember finding info when Nero was sick and it stated that E.Canis will settle in the liver if going untreated. The west had little experience with this disease before the sixties...Ehrlichiosis killed several thousand German sheppards during the Vietnam war...the main issue though right now is that I can't just put Bubu on Doxycycline while his liver is in such a bad condition, the antibiotics would kill him.

Also the bleeding from the nose and now progressing in the urine seems to me a sign of some parasitic infection, or am I wrong?

Blood tests would reveal a lot but I guess we need to wait for the vet to pull out whatever crawled up her ass and died there and give us some news (she's pissed at me because when Junior died of an antibiotic overdose she gave him, I did let her know, very politely I may add, that death had occurred seemingly because of an overdose, her reaction revealed that it was her mistake - she treated a 10kg puppy with a dose for a 30kg adult - no reason in my eyes to now withhold information critical to this dog's life).

Again, any info please is very much appreciated.

 

[LivinLOS]

I have no info of any value but.. Could it be some kind of heavy poisoning with the blood in the urine etc..

A couple of mates have had dogs poisoned, doesnt seem the thing up here but Phuket it was common.

 

[bikesncats]

I have no info of any value but.. Could it be some kind of heavy poisoning with the blood in the urine etc..

A couple of mates have had dogs poisoned, doesnt seem the thing up here but Phuket it was common.

The thought has crossed my mind, liver issues, bleeding! Someone poisoned every dog in a village not far from here...Taan, our "matriarch" was poisoned a couple years ago - after a sleepless night of feeding her carbonated drinks and charkole pills by the hour she made it through - but never had any symptoms near of what Bubu has. Our dogs haven't left the property in months because people have been shooting at them (a couple of them like to hunt chicken), but I wouldn't put it passed some of these IMFs to actually through something poisoned over the wall...if I only had the results of the blood tests, that would explain many things, even poison I think.

But I sure hope it is not it...that would seriously compromise the way I handle my neighbours (you know...small things...like braking when they cross the road without looking for instance)...

 

[bikesncats]

Ok...HBvet called back...said his liver count was 1,000 times the normal value - I assume she means the Bilirubin count - duuuhhhhh....she wants to take X-Rays to find out more.

That does sound strange to me, what can one see in a liver X-Ray? Viruses, poison or anything????

Ohhh...now she says he also has worms in his white blood cells. Bilirubin comes from red blood cells being destroyed doesn't it? So the worms in the white blood cell attack the neighboring red cells?

But at least we start getting answers...we are getting the nose bleeding under control with double the normal dose of adrenaline...he is eating and still asks for pepsi every 5 minutes so that is a good sign...I just hope the meds to clear his liver do the job quickly so we can start treating him with antibiotics...I would really miss the scratches he leaves on the front everytime Jap takes him riding

 

[LivinLOS]

Good luck.. Like you, if I thought someone purposefully harmed my mutt they would be in a world of hurt..

You get very attached to the little feckers.

 

[Ally]

Alex

Sorry to hear about this.

I assume you have the knowledge of these anyway.

Blood parasites can take hold of a dog and make the blood thin & coupled with immune issues arising, clotting not happening, the weakest areas bleed first, like humans... the nose. Generally termed blood parasites but could be E-Canis.

Ehrlichia canis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another could be Babesia
Babesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gums when yellow show a liver issue & blood parasites will kill a dog by killing the liver.

Another suggestion is Leptosporosis
Leptospirosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Transmitted easily by rat urine in water.

Good luck. Hope the dog is on FBC & Doxycycline

Ally

 

[bikesncats]

Thanks Ally, some very interesting info.

I know for sure it is not leptospirosis because he is vaccinated for it. I don't know anything about Babesia but I know there is no existing vaccine for Ehrlichia Canis. Unfortunately because of the liver issues we cannot yet put him on antibiotics.

We have the bleeding under control now and he drinks and eats, pisses all over the place so still urinating too frequently for a normal dog, but the urine is also clearing slowly. These are good signs, though now we have our hands full keeping him calm as he wants to play and run...the exercise could become an issue as bleeding could start again anytime. I hope the liver treatment we are administering works quickly so we can start treating him with doxycycline.

 

[bikesncats]

From what I been reading and based on the vets call I would tend to say that Babesia might fit the bill but then they mention that Babesia is mainly spread in Europe and the US...no mention of Asia or Africa. hmmmmm.....

I just had a chat with our veterinarian friend at the elephant hospital and he says that a liver X-Ray is useless in determining what kind of parasite it is. The most urgent issue is to keep the bleeding in check and clear Bubu's liver properly and as fast as possible so we can treat him with antibiotics.

He also seems to know the prima donna vet in Surin and he doesn't seem to have much sympathy for her mainly because she has a history of unprofessional behaviour. Such a drag, the only place around with the equipment necessary

 

[Ally]

Alex, there are i believe 4-5 types of lepto and the vaccines do not cover them all. I researched that issue 5 years ago and had the same feeling 'oh i can't be that cos of the vaccine ...' But its the same treatment plan what ever the parasite

FBC is the dark red tablet to assist the blood health.

 

[bikesncats]

Good luck.. Like you, if I thought someone purposefully harmed my mutt they would be in a world of hurt..

You get very attached to the little feckers.

The people that shot Nero, he was a 7 months old puppy then, with a hooked steel pointed arrow are our neighbors...an elderly couple with a bunch of grandkids living with them. We always brought them food at least 3 - 4 times a week because we know they have little and the kids used to look starved before that. We also used to buy them the fertilizer for the rice and lend them money when they needed to buy medications which the hospital couldn't hand out free. I haven't given them even a look since...I bet my right testicle that they really didn't think for a second what consequences their lurid action would have.

 

[bikesncats]

Alex, there are i believe 4-5 types of lepto and the vaccines do not cover them all. I researched that issue 5 years ago and had the same feeling 'oh i can't be that cos of the vaccine ...' But its the same treatment plan what ever the parasite

FBC is the dark red tablet to assist the blood health.

Great info Ally...thanks. So he has FBC already now, he gets those big dark red tablets 3 times a day together with a small pink tablet also to help blood health, in addition he gets one yellow orange capsule to help stop the bleeding. Sorry I am unable to read the Thai so I do not the names of the meds...our vet friend gave us these Thursday morning and told me absolutely no antibiotics at this stage or it will kill him with his liver in such a bad condition (something the vet lady at the clinic wanted to prescribe).

If it is leptospirosis what kind of antibiotics would be best in your opinion? Would doxycycline be appropriate? Thank you so much for all your time and help

 

[bikesncats]

Sorry Ally, one more question...I couldn't find any reference to it on the Wikepedia link but I seem to remember a paper I read about E.Canis or leptospirosis I do not recall, if I recall it mentioned that the "infection" can become dormant when settled in the liver and that at that stage it cannot be effectively cured with antibiotics, is that actually accurate or am I confusing things?

What would it mean in this case as the liver seems heavily affected already?

 

[bikesncats]

........Transmitted easily by rat urine in water...............

We do have mice around the property especially in and near the "yung khao". The dogs like to hunt them and often end up playing with them and literally tear them apart, though I never seen them eat one could the playing cause transmission? If so then we really narrowed down the cause, either Leptospirosis or Ehrlichiosis.

If the treatment is the same for both we can start feeling a little more relaxed knowing he'll be out of the woods soon, .... riiiiiight?

 

[Ally]

If so then we really narrowed down the cause, either Leptospirosis or Ehrlichiosis.

If the treatment is the same for both we can start feeling a little more relaxed knowing he'll be out of the woods soon, .... riiiiiight?

If the vets are not talking about blood transfusions then the levels are still recoverable &with help, the dog will strengthen.

I have seen many dogs come back from the brink, when they have had horrific blood parasite infections, they are amazingly resilient creatures. That you care & notice & hopefully caught it in time is what will save the guys life.

After such attacks, dogs may have a weakened organ or a lingering susceptibility to illness due to their immune systems having taken a battering but you can help them with diet and protections but as you already know, there are no guarantees or certainties.

Yes Doxy is the ideal antibiotic for blood work, others are specialists for other parts of the body. It's a human medicine so most pharmacists carry it.

 

[bikesncats]

Thanks Ally.

We got the bleeding completely stopped. the gums seem to look better as well already. I have to be honest that seeing how bad he got in such a short time really got me worried. Bubu is already 6 years old, half Labrador half Bankaeo, so I guess life expectancy is probably around 10 to 12 years, which makes him rather on the old side now.

I found Essential, a phospholipid addition that supports lever healing for toxic and hep damage, I added 300mg a day of that this afternoon and the vet seems to like the idea.

Unfortunately we really need to make sure that the liver is healing before pumping antibiotics into him. He's a strong dog, I feel already better about the situation.

Thank you for taking the time Ally, I really appreciate it. Drinks on me as soon as I can get to take ride up there.

 

[bikesncats]

Another question Ally, Bubu has not been bleeding anymore and seems well alert with some lethargic moments in between...but he refuses to eat meat, does very so very little when I force him, but keeps begging for sweets and cheese, pepsi...and wants everything cold, fridge cold I mean...Sorry for taking so much of your time, we can't reach our friend vet and the one in Surin is not answering our calls.

I know dogs are a lot more in touch with their bodies then we humans are and usually know from the smell of things what is good and what is bad for their bodies but I am not so sure that it can apply to sweets...chees, like any milk product could also be an issue for the liver in terms of overloading it, or am I wrong? Also the cold intake while it may be southing something, wouldn't it be slowing healing progress of the organs?

On a side note: Seven, our half Doberman half Labrador girl has given birth to 15 puppies over the course of the day yesterday...what a trooper. Bubu is the father, half Labrador and half Bankaeo. 12 of the puppies look like Nero, black (a few with a little white patch under the neck) and totally Labrador, 3 like Panda, black and white (from the Bankaeo gene for sure (btw Nero and Panda were from the previous litter of Seven and Bubu). I'll be posting some pics as soon as I have time to upload them. Anyone interested in providing a good home to a highly intelligent dog (they all have always been from these two "parents") let me know. Panda, like his sister, have become rather giant, at 1 1/2 y/o he's around 50kg (the Vet explained that Labrador and Bankaeo gene mix can produce giant breeds), Nero is like 100% Labrador.

 

[bikesncats]

I think Bubu is now out of the woods even though we haven't been able to start antibiotics yet. His urine went from reddish to green and alternately orange and green in between but started turning to a normal yellow. Last night he started eating well and is now, against all calls to stay resting, playing a lot. He still only drinks cold water but at this point I don't mind. Hopefully we can start him on Doxycycline soon and get him back to normal asap.

Thank you all for your input and especially Ally for your help

It's funny how I can approach any injury, remain calm and instinctively spring to action but when confronted with a disease I feel totally useless and "panic" because I feel the need for immediate action yet can't do anything helpful...

 

[Ally]

Thanks for the update Alex, that's great news!

:jump

 

[bikesncats]

Thanks Ally...our friend vet came by yesterday and told me to take Bubu off the FBC and the other blood support pills but told me to keep going twice a day with the liver support pills. He thinks the FBC pills are slowing down the liver healing...

He said that we needed to keep the liver healing process going for about a month before we can put him on doxycycline...and no FBC for such a long period worries me a bit, without the antibiotic treatment the parasites are still reeking havoc in there...I'll be keeping a very close eye on Bubu.

 

[Ally]

Thanks Ally...our friend vet came by yesterday and told me to take Bubu off the FBC and the other blood support pills but told me to keep going twice a day with the liver support pills. He thinks the FBC pills are slowing down the liver healing...

He said that we needed to keep the liver healing process going for about a month before we can put him on doxycycline...and no FBC for such a long period worries me a bit, without the antibiotic treatment the parasites are still reeking havoc in there...I'll be keeping a very close eye on Bubu.

Based on a new blood test & results ? or just gut feeling and a poke at a healthier pinker gum?

Trust dog's & not 'friends' especially if they are vets.

Alex, if the numbers in the blood test results are improving then there is time for rejoice, if there are no numbers (no test) then you should still worry & be getting a test to quantify the changes.

 

[bikesncats]

Based on a new blood test & results ? or just gut feeling and a poke at a healthier pinker gum?

Trust dog's & not 'friends' especially if they are vets.

Alex, if the numbers in the blood test results are improving then there is time for rejoice, if there are no numbers (no test) then you should still worry & be getting a test to quantify the changes.

Ally...it's based on a poke at the healthier pinker (but still a bit yellowish) gum...no blood tests. So yes, gut feeling would be the right term.

He also said no pepsi and no cold water...yet Bubu refuses to drink anything that's not cold...he constantly bags for cold water and pepsi to the point where Jap gives in...

Personally I cannot see how the FBC pills would make it hard on the liver when they helped reducing the blood problems in the first place. As far as I understand Essential is just a support measure for liver treatments, by itself it must not be as effective as using other measures...but he was very adamant about not using antibiotics until the liver is healed and stressed that any other pills would hinder the healing. He said a new blood test would not reveal more then he already knows...

I have been talking to Jap and we were thinking of going back to Surin for a new blood test, even though it's relatively expensive we would like to know more and your opinion actually confirms our doubts...so... we will definitely head up there today for a new blood test. Thank you soo much.

 

[bikesncats]

Well Ally...the vets disagree about the course of action!!!

I found out - after prying the 1st test results out of her hands - that she found E.Canis and does suspect that the liver got attacked by Leptospirosis...we are still waiting on the results of the new blood tests.

She recommended that we put Bubu immediately on Doxycycline - 250mg per day in a single dose administered in the evening (he's now down to 24Kg) - while continuing the FBC pills in the morning and Essential in morning and evening. I think Essential contains Iron/folic acid which would hinder the effect of doxycycline so I will not administer the 2 together...but I somehow believe that Bubu should get Doxycycline as soon as possible and am now a little conflicted about the two different philosophies for treatment...

I guess starting doxy and keeping a very close eye on his jaundice is probably the way to go?

 

[Ally]

Well Ally...the vets disagree about the course of action!!!

I found out - after prying the 1st test results out of her hands - that she found E.Canis and does suspect that the liver got attacked by Leptospirosis...we are still waiting on the results of the new blood tests.

She recommended that we put Bubu immediately on Doxycycline - 250mg per day in a single dose administered in the evening (he's now down to 24Kg) - while continuing the FBC pills in the morning and Essential in morning and evening. I think Essential contains Iron/folic acid which would hinder the effect of doxycycline so I will not administer the 2 together...but I somehow believe that Bubu should get Doxycycline as soon as possible and am now a little conflicted about the two different philosophies for treatment...

I guess starting doxy and keeping a very close eye on his jaundice is probably the way to go?

Never met 2 vets that agreed! So you must have met 2 vets

There is a 'snap test' available for various complaints using blood and there would then be a definitive positive or negative result. It's like a pregnancy test that is for one off useage.

The blood work results that you may have pryed out of the vets hand could show indications that e-canis was causing the result.

But to hold off giving antibiotics until the dog is 'better' would be a crazy approach. The blood tests need repeating (weekly / fortnightly) to monitor the positive / negative impacts of the doxy and hopefully witness recovery. Keeping a dog on doxy for too long can again have detrimental effect, damaging the already fragile liver, so about 8 weeks is typically the limit.

This last vet advice sounds more professional and appropriate.

Zuu zuu Bubu!

 

[bikesncats]

Thanks Ally...so far the most professional explanations and advise that makes most sense I got these passed few days is from you. Thank you soo much for your time and support in this. Today Bubu is feeling down a bit, seems to have less energy and doesn't eat as much...had some grass and came near my work station to puke (just fluids and grass) so I would see that something is off...I think the aircon in the truck yesterday might have been a bad idea...

We started FBC in conjunction with the liver pills this morning (as we were doing before the elephant vet said to stop FBC and keep going with essential only) and tomorrow I should receive the 250mg Doxycycline so I will start him on those for 30 days, I already have an appointment to get another blood test next Wednesday. Lets keep our fingers crossed.

 

[bikesncats]

Never met 2 vets that agreed! So you must have met 2 vets

There is a 'snap test' available for various complaints using blood and there would then be a definitive positive or negative result. It's like a pregnancy test that is for one off useage.

The blood work results that you may have pryed out of the vets hand could show indications that e-canis was causing the result.

But to hold off giving antibiotics until the dog is 'better' would be a crazy approach. The blood tests need repeating (weekly / fortnightly) to monitor the positive / negative impacts of the doxy and hopefully witness recovery. Keeping a dog on doxy for too long can again have detrimental effect, damaging the already fragile liver, so about 8 weeks is typically the limit.

This last vet advice sounds more professional and appropriate.

Zuu zuu Bubu!

Bubu has taken a turn for the worse last night...yesterday he was drinking milk and eating but in the evening very little and didn't want to drink. I had to force some water and glucose into him. We started the FBC pills again yesterday morning and today we were going to start the Doxycycline...but in the night he had barely the energy to get up and walk a few steps...I had to carry him inside (it was cold outside) and he womited the little he had eaten. I felt better when he started drinking again but just now he vomited again what seems the water he drank and coagulated blood in it, some big clumps and a lot of dispersed small blood clots...

What happened to get so much worse in a such a short time...in the afternoon he was still alert and playing, he even went for a couple of swims in the pool. Freaking vet only starts at 11:00 so no need to try and call or head up there now, I am trying to find something he will eat but he's walking away with the bit of energy he's got left and is breathing laboured.

I just noticed now he is trying to take a dump but everywhere he goes he has just blood with a few blood clumps coming out...

 

[bikesncats]

Bubu's condition is still worrysome...he got doxycycline and amoxicillin injections as well as a 500ml acetate drip subcutaneously and we will have to start the same treatment with pills in the morning in addition to the FBC and phospholipids he was taking. The results for leptospirosis will be in from the lab tomorrow (they do not have snap tests here in Surin)...

I got him to drink some glucose when we got home and shortly after he vomited blood clots again and when he was trying to take a dump he only had a squirt of blood...the paw where he got the intravenous injection is bleeding intermittently without apparent cause (nothing visible). I guess those parasites are really reaking havoc in his body. I can't believe the other vet didn't want him on antibiotic earlier...I guess elephants react differently...

He's a strong dog, he'll get through this...it just pains us to see him in such a state and not be able to do much...

 

[Ally]

Hang on in there Alex.

 

[bikesncats]

Thanks Ally...he slept on our bed side last night and (pretty unusual) slept all night through without waking up or going anywhere from 7pm last night till 2am when we got up. Woke up well alert and energized, first thing he did was drink the toilet bowl empty and follow us into our "bakery"...I gave him the weird pill he needs to take 1/2hr before eating that supposed to give him appetite and prevent puking...5 min later it's like it hit him with a sledge hammer and got all lethargic again, went outside to lie on the cold cement floor...we now brought him inside and tried to feed him, the only thing he liked were the pedigree dentastix and the squid strips Jap likes, at least he ate and we were able to feed the antibiotics after. Now off to my delivery round...thanks again Ally.

 

[bikesncats]

Unbelievable...or better how remarkably he recovered from yesterday's low. We still had to force some glucose into him at lunch and he ate a bit of meat then we game him the FBC and phospholipids pills...we had to leave a few hours this afternoon and when we came back he was the first at the gate to great us, as if never had any illness. He is back to his true calling of "gourmet dog" and went through a kilo of smoked meat I made yesterday in minutes.

Needless to say I stopped the weird anti-puking pills that seem to make him sick every time I feed him one and I also stopped giving him the Acetate drip (which he really hates) but the combined antibiotic, FBC and Essential regime seems to work wonders for him (without all the other crap that just make him lethargic and rob him of appetite).

I'll keep a close eye on him but it looks as we have found a good treatment for him, though we are still waiting on the last lab tests. Needless to say I will be sleeping well tonight...

 

[Ally]

Fabulous news Alex but don't 'drop the ball' keep at it with the tests.

 

[bikesncats]

Fabulous news Alex but don't 'drop the ball' keep at it with the tests.

I will Ally...the next blood test is scheduled for the 22nd. I noticed today that he still has blood in his stool, it's a soft stool with very dark color, but a far cry from the blood only he had 2 days ago. He's now back to asking for cold water and won't touch room temperature water at all, I tried and he went the entire afternoon without drinking a drop...everytime I told him he needed to drink he went to sit by the fridge and waited on me, everytime I told him no he would just FFFFF at me and walk away...so...cold water it is since he really needs to drink. Besides, if he really wants it that bad it cannot not really do much damage I think.

I hope tomorrow we will finally get the lab tests from the last blood exam so we know more about what kind of bug found its way in there. Thanks again Ally for your advice and lets hope its all good from here.