First look the H2..

Looks like a non-turbo'd but tuned BMW S 1000 RR gets to around 220 HP. Would be an interesting shoot out between the two.




Carpenter Racing




220 hp bmw.jpg
 
Can i rent one and do the Samoeng loop on it? :scooter:
 
300 hp of forced induction insanity..


Its not a bike for me, or Thailand.. But I do have half a chubby right now.
 
Certainly come a long way since the original H2..

1975-mach-iv.jpg
 
Loop said:
Certainly come a long way since the original H2..

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Hey, I had one of those ... when I was a little younger LOL...those triples were nasty, all engine and no frame or brakes...

I recall once I left our gathering spot on one wheel and after a few hundred meters when the front came down so did the sidestand (unnoticed of course) and shortly ahead were 2 fast long right then left curves...I'm sure you can imagine what transpired :dirtbike: memories memories...
 
bikesncats said:
Hey, I had one of those ... when I was a little younger LOL...those triples were nasty, all engine and no frame or brakes...

I recall once I left our gathering spot on one wheel and after a few hundred meters when the front came down so did the sidestand (unnoticed of course) and shortly ahead were 2 fast long right then left curves...I'm sure you can imagine what transpired :dirtbike: memories memories...
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Yeah,i knew some guys that had them back in the 70's. The original widow maker.

In later times (early 90's) a guy i knew from racing was racing one.
He told me that with later improved electronic ignition,carbs,pipes,porting,shocks,brakes,frame mods and tires it was a decent,easy to ride race bike.
 
Here's a couple of a legendary Production racer Aussie style...

One year the bike got deemed to have a dangerous rear tyre and not allowed to go back out on the track while leading the Castrol 6 Hour race in the dying laps.

The bike with 2 of Aussie's legendary riders riding it was taken back out on the track the next day and the lap record was broken with the "dangerous" tyre on it.

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10676319_711646928911366_4257447023929312098_n.jpg.
 
bikesncats said:
On the link our friend Forest posted is also this article from "Motociclisimo"... Kawasaki Ninja H2: ecco le foto del missile targato - Motociclismo The interesting thing is, they called it "il missile targato"...which translates as "the rocket with a license plate". So to all those that were wondering if they did get it street legal, it looks like in the EU they did by the sounds of this article. Rock On Kawasaki!
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Definetly ! There is 2 versions ,street with lights mirrors etc and a racing ones.find on utube there is a vid at Jay Leno garage has both ;)
 
Local Kwak dealer in Sussex UK has already taken orders for 3 H2 and 2 H2rr £40k + ,,,,,,some people have too much money !!!!!!
 
Forest said:
Definetly ! There is 2 versions ,street with lights mirrors etc and a racing ones.find on utube there is a vid at Jay Leno garage has both ;)
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Makes me wonder what class they'll race in...a supercharged class? as they would eat anything other than a MotoGP bike on the track and supercharging is not allowed in that.

Something like Pikes Peak...maybe.
A one make H2 class?
 
Not yet mentioned is the Kawasaki warranty for the H2R:

"The H2R is sold "As is" with no warranties, express or implied. The purchaser accepts all responsibilities
concerning cost of service, maintenance and repairs."

So...if the engine goes BOOM...then so does the $50K you spent to buy the bike!
 
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^ nice find.

I'd like to think that they had the supercharging on a 1L bike engine sorted well enough to provide a warranty.
 
^

The H2R is the track-only version- I don't think any company warranties race bikes. The H2 street version will come with a standard factory warranty (and Kawi will only sell H2R parts to registered owners, so anyone with an H2 that wants to raise the specs with OEM parts will have a difficult or impossible time doing it, and- as it will be sold in limited quantities- there probably won't be much of an aftermarket).
 
Grathiam said:
Not yet mentioned is the Kawasaki warranty for the H2R:

"The H2R is sold "As is" with no warranties, express or implied. The purchaser accepts all responsibilities
concerning cost of service, maintenance and repairs."

So...if the engine goes BOOM...then so your $50K spent to buy the bike!
Click to expand...

To get that kind of power from a "stock bike" requires that much and more money (on top of buying the bike)...no warranties on any of the components and...no more warranty on your bike either for doing the mods.

On my "old" R1 I had spent, overall all together, over 55k CHF just on the engine...no warranty on any of the parts!

One thing is sure, blowers (though much better then Turbo imo) can cause too much pressure, especially if selectable pressure is available, and if you over-rev-it you can have a nasty surprise (like the boom you mention)...it is only understandable that any warranty must be quite selective and limited...especially on a fully open version.

Kowboy, considering that quantities are limited it seems logical that most blower components are actually stock from specific manufacturers. I would think that these can be found if a little effort is put into it.
 
Ok,normal for a race bike to not have a warranty.

Not much use trying to race anything without a supercharger against them.
 
Loop said:
Ok,normal for a race bike not have a warranty.

Not much use trying to race anything without a supercharger against them.
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Yup- I'd like to know which class they're planning to compete in- maybe WERA open-class.
 
By quickly reading through the patents deposited by Kawasaki it seems that they have actually patented components that aftermarket tuners make themselves when building a supercharged engine.

For one, I seriously doubt that their patent for placing the blower inline with filter, behind the cylinders, with the pressure tank above will hold up in any court case since this has been done over and over by so many tuners and, first to file notwithstanding, it is public knowledge...hence not patentable. Details such as specific dimensions, placing of the sensors and relief valve, duct design and tolerances are the only thing that let the patents stand...but anyone that has done serious tuning jobs will get around these quite easily.

Considering that the patents clearly identify the crucial dimensions, even if the components for an upgrade are not readily available, they can be reproduced by a tuner and installed to make the H2 a true H2R...with a few dimensional changes Kawasaki wouldn't even be able to sue the copycat...but then again, they wouldn't, they just need to make sure that they cannot get sued for letting H2Rs run freely in the streets. Let's face it, any soccer mom in the US would sue Kawasaki after their husband gets bent out shape if he could use the H2R on the streets.
 
Your initial point was that the supercharger parts used in the H2R were off-the-shelf components made by other manufacturers and that upgraded parts can be easily sourced- they clearly are not, and are indeed patented and proprietary to Kawasaki. The limited number of H2 (lower-spec street) models that will be manufactured also means a very limited aftermarket (especially since upgrading the supercharger would void the existing factory warranty that the H2- unlike the H2R- comes with), meaning the ROI on creating bespoke aftermarket engine parts is cost-prohibitive or non-existent (at least at this point where this particular supercharged engine is in such limited use). Bolt-on parts will of course be available from various manufacturers.

It may well be possible to circumvent parts of the patent by altering the Kawasaki design, but it will take quite a bit more than a 'little effort'. As I said, sourcing OEM parts to upgrade an H2 to H2R specs will be very unlikely.

Speculating on what's 'patentable' in this case isn't necessary when we have documentation of what's actually been patented- anything in the patent has already been researched and approved (getting a patent is an exhaustive undertaking), and would indeed hold up in court as far as the patented design is concerned- changing to a more conventional set-up is a different story.

Obviously any good tuner could pull the system apart and modify or upgrade it, but I'm not sure many owners would consider using anything other than OEM engine parts (I'm not referring to bolt-ons like exhausts, but critical parts like supercharger components) on their $25,000 bikes- I wouldn't (or at least I wouldn't be a test-pilot;)).

My guess is that a few H2R owners will dress up their bikes with lights, signals, etc and try to register them for the street at some back-water DMV (though they probably won't have a full VIN, which will make it extremely difficult or impossible), and that most H2 owners will change their intakes, exhausts, and fueling/ECU tunes to increase power before upgrading the supercharger itself.
 
Sorry I just answerd in detail all points but I must have timed out again so fuck it...I'll get into it again when I feel like it right now this system just pissed me off.

Just to quickly answer without going into the nitty gritty details of materials and components etc...,

a) it was not speculation to what is patentable, it was a clear statement that the overall layout is public knowledge and it is the dimensions, arrangement of sensors and other components used that are proprietary to Kawasaki and are at the heart of the patents. The blower itself is not patented as it follows other, new but conventional blower designs and it is still not clear if it actually is a Kawasaki only make. Bottom line, the R version components can easily be reproduced...

b) If you think that tuning at this level, meaning 300+HP, is or could be a run of the mill mass production you are living in a different dimension. This kind of tuning is always "one of a kind job" (meaning it is always specific components adapted to one particular ride, a hand made job everytime) and it comes at a related cost. Kawasaki is the first to "mass" produce such a machine and it is certainly not for the profits, it is to put them back to the top of the engine race..as simple as that.

c) As for buyer's philosophy, most of those buying the H2R do so for the prestige and to race it on a track. On the other hand a great many of those buying the H2 will do so with the intention to upgrade it to the 300HP of the R and even more because they see it as a good (already legal) platform to do so. If I were in the position I was not to long ago that is what I would do, at lesser cost then what other options represent. But that is why I pumped my R1 to 325HP while you are content with a near stock ZX, not that it is a bad thing, just a different philosophy.

Take the example of my friend at Stylmoto, he has a ZX14 with 1720cc pumping out 450HP (measured at the rear wheel). He used components CNC machined from bulk Carbon and Titanium, net-shape-spray-formed Titanium-aluminide...everything coated with materials from Molibdenum-disilicide to beta-phased Calcium phosphate...at these levels the advantage of high volume production disappears because the cost of materials greatly outweighs the cost of manufacturing. I would feel safer as test pilot of my friend's virgin ride then on the first H2R test ride.;)..just because of the custom materials tailored to each specific component, something an OEM cannot afford to do.

P.S. I wonder why so many patents are challenged and lost and why so many court cases drag on for years if the patent process is as clean and clear cut as you make it sound...
 
Edited- this is going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the factual information I posted.

As I said, OEM H2R parts are unavailable to anyone but registered owners- yes, if you want to get your own parts made you can of course do so, but it will be done neither easily nor with 'little effort'.
 
Kawboy said:
Edited- this is going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the factual information I posted.

As I said, OEM H2R parts are unavailable to anyone but registered owners- yes, if you want to get your own parts made you can of course do so, but it will be done neither easily nor with 'little effort'.
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When posting factual information it should at least be accurate, not speculation and assumptions - Have you actually bothered reading AND understanding the patents?

You sure didn't bother trying to understand what I was saying. Whatever the tangent is - relevant to YOUR info or not - it is information relevant to the H2 and H2R (and it is an interesting topic that sprung out of it I may add)... it may not interest you but I am certain that there are people interested in what is available out there. It is certainly relevant information when someone with experience in the tuning field can attest to what it takes for such modifications to be implemented. This thread is not just about you and the "factual info" you post, it's about the H2, H2R and related information, tuning included.

Back to the OEM parts...so Kawasaki has a policy in place to sell H2R parts ONLY to registered owners. Good, as I said, many legal issues associated with such a machine (especially in the fucked up American system) so Kawasaki needs to protect themselves. Do you really believe that nobody with an H2 could actually find a way to circumvent that rule and get his hands on those parts "illegally"?

And yes, with the dimensions laid out in one of the patents it is only a matter of reading and copying these (hence little effort) and then reproduce them with a CNC machine (hence easily done)...the only issue here is cash which has nothing to do with what you try to argue. I understand that you have little experience with engine tuning and it shows in your way of thinking, again, nothing wrong, when applied in the "normal world" but...

As I explained...when it comes to these levels of power output from such compact and small displacement engines there is nothing run of the mill, no mass production and no economies of scale that can apply because the material costs greatly outweigh the machining costs - everything you do is cost prohibitive.

I agree with you that nobody will try to mass produce H2R components to upgrade the H2 and offer them on the market...but mainly because of patent infringement issues (while I wouldn't get pursued for making a copy for myself, reproducing and selling becomes a serious issue) and because of the reasons mentioned in my earlier post and hereinabove...at these levels everything is custom adapted and custom made...no need for "inferior" OEM parts.
 
2wheels said:
We get to hear the bike here ......
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Great little dyno run...shows very clearly how nice and lean you can go with forced air induction when all the critical components have thermal barriers...I bet exhaust runs bright and shiny yellow when they keep it up for a bit!

Awesome, simply AWESOME....thanks for digging that up Ron.
 
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